I started playing DAoC in November of 2001 and I dont remember 8v8 being a thing back then. I remember running around with large groups of Albs fighting other large groups of Hibs and Mids. The most fun I ever had was fighting a large Mid group then having a large Hib group come in and ass jam us. Some times the 3rd group took our side and helped us and sometimes they helped in our demise. I never got mad because it was fun. Now you have all these rules. I have both been in fights and watched streamers where the 3rd realm wont jump in the fight. What the hell is this crap and when did it begin because I dont remember RvR being like this 15 years ago.

I started DAoC in '01 as well. Stopped in 03-04. 8 mans were never a thing. Small man hunting groups sure. But no '8 man honor only'. You description of how the old fights were is quite accurate and its amazing. I heard Live went 8man love but not sure when and after looking into it I never came back until Uthgard 2.

dabrixmgp wrote:I started playing DAoC in November of 2001 and I dont remember 8v8 being a thing back then. I remember running around with large groups of Albs fighting other large groups of Hibs and Mids. The most fun I ever had was fighting a large Mid group then having a large Hib group come in and ass jam us. Some times the 3rd group took our side and helped us and sometimes they helped in our demise. I never got mad because it was fun. Now you have all these rules. I have both been in fights and watched streamers where the 3rd realm wont jump in the fight. What the hell is this crap and when did it begin because I dont remember RvR being like this 15 years ago.

These rules started when the only 8man running decided to say "f this" and log after consistently getting zerged because it's not worth their time to come back out.

Nothing is stopping you from adding. You can add all you like.

Don't expect your opponents to keep coming back out if that's the behavior you wish to exude.

The realms already aren't exactly balanced with some classes having a mixed and mashed version of abilities that other classes may or may not have. Ignoring things such as abilities, classes, RA's, and relics, the game also has a population imbalance at all times. If you're a part of the realm that is outnumbered and people keep adding on you and overwhelming your group so that you have no chance to even get a kill or two, what exactly would you do?

Most sane people would log.

And those that outnumbered that person or group, will have to accept running around with nothing to kill.

If that's your game, then play ball and zerg your opponents until no one logs in again.

At the end of the day it's an RvR game and somebody has to lose. There is always a chance the losing side is going to give up and not come back out. People are going to play the way they want to play - and as long as the game allows it - there will continue to be strife.

Take Ultima Online as an example - PvP was pretty much open with free looting all over the game world. The eventual reality was that Origin Systems had to make a "safe space" for people who didn't want to be victimized any longer.

You either accept the open RvR nature of the game for what it is, or you can try to work with and coerce the community into a certain playstyle and code of conduct - ala 8v8.

First off, i think everyone is entitled to play the game that they have the most fun playing it.

Now if you want a bit of perspective/insight from the 8v8 side/mindset, let me tell you at least where I come from (i drive an 8v8 and make the calls when to hit/pull off, etc).

Here is the overview:
-First and foremost we (our 8man group) wants to have fun. For us, 8v8 fights are the most challenging and fun. We are at the point with RPs/etc that we aren't just trying to get any and every RP we can, so we are more than willing to pass on the RPs if it leads to us being able to have more fun (which as already states, is for us 8v8 fights).

So what are some of those "rules" that we follow?

Well they include not adding into other 8v8 fights already going (this is a do unto others as you would want them to do unto you). If we add into a fight already going there is no challenge. There isn't a challenge for them because we are going to smoke them, and there isnt a challenge for us, because we are going to smoke them. So this is the #1 reason we don't add into other 8v8 fights (including hib/mid fights) because it isn't FUN and we aren't just out for RPs.

Now if there is a group that just fought, and they are pulling off to med, we aren't going to hit them. This is again because we would just steamroll them. Vulturing a group without power/rez sick/etc is not FUN.

This behavior means that we pass on situations that we could otherwise gotten some extra RPs, but again, for our rr5-7 group, we are much more concerned with challenging fights and having FUN. The rps come, and in fact we pull in 5-10k rps/hr from pure 8v8 in the evenings.

Honestly the 8v8 atmosphere has been great. Lots of people respecting fights which means everyone is spending more time having FUN and challenging fights (win or lose). The other possibility is having someone add and there being 0 challenge for all sides and then people are back at the portal keep waiting another 10-20 minutes just to get back out into a situation in which they can attempt to have a fight.

"But what about those of us that like BIG FIGHTS!?" - Well like i said, everyone is entitled to what they find enjoyable/fun. I personally find that my actions have a greater impact and that i have to play at a higher level when engaged in 8v8 combat. So for me (and i am assuming a lot of other 8v8 players) i am going to do everything i can to try and get into as many 8v8 fights as possible in a play session.

"But what about 8 mans killing soloers/small men? Where is the challenge?" - There are a lot of players that claim to want to just 8v8 that secretly are still in love with RPs and getting RPs is their main goal. As for our group, we pass on soloers/small men if we know them/they are camped out at a MG/etc and we know they are attempting to solo. Why do we kill the others? Because we want 8v8 fights, not 8v12, not 8v9, not 8v10, and if there is a trio running around emain on speed i can pretty much guarantee they are looking to add into fights that have already started, and that is not a chance i am willing to take. I am going to kill that trio and ensure that the next inc we get is going to be 8 and not 8+3. Sometimes letting soloers/small men has come back to bite us in the butt, but it is a balancing act in which we try our best to let others enjoy their gameplay choices in the hopes that it will mean we get to enjoy ours more often.

Anyways, I know you just wanted to rant a bit about the 8 man mindset, but i am bored at work and felt like giving a bit of an insight into where we are coming from

Oh and the 8v8 mindset has been around since the start of the game, though the concepts of "respect" and "not adding" have been aspects that have built over time. A lot of it has to do with the fact that our community is so relatively small and people have been playing this game for 15+ years now. We have "been there done that" and so for us the "red is dead" mentality isn't the fun part of the game. The building of a single group however, and pitting your group against another in 8v8 is extremely enjoyable.

Sorry, I'm not quite 50 yet, and have yet to step into the frontier, but I have to ask, where are these 8v8's happening?

Is it (1) in some out-of-the-way zone? where the home realm owns all keeps and there is no active non-8v8 RvR going on? Do all the groups that want to 8v8 agree on a zone that is unlikely to have zerg's and then roam around there looking for fights?

Or is it (2) in Emain with both keeps down in the path of the zerg(s) trying to retake the keeps, and where you are picking off the groups of folks trying to help their realm?

I've had fun in this game solo, in small groups, in 8v8s, and in zerg v. zerg. Even in "8v8," a RR 6-7 8v8 group vs RR2-3 8v8 group is hardly a "fair fight." 8v12 or 8v16 in those circumstances would be more fair and would certainly be more challenging.

Yes, it sucks and is not fun when you get hit with overwhelming odds. Similarly, when you have an even and close 8v8 fight, it sucks when a group adds (is AJ still used?) and tips the scales. But if you are doing (2) discussed above, you are practically begging for adds.

As for which helps/hurts the playerbase more... LMAOrak died long before Gareth did.

-J

8 rr5+ vs 8 rr3+4, I can see where that fight is going,

Maybe zerg it up till rr5?

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I remember 8-mans circa 2003, but they weren't built around the idea that they were only going to fight other 8-mans, most were built around the idea that they were gonna try to bust zergs. Figuring out how to fight against greater numbers was just a fact of life that people accepted. I'm sure some would log off in frustration at times because of it, but it seemed like those forming 8-mans at the time were doing so because they wanted to see if they could pull off wins in those situations, too. I specifically remember guilds choosing to play on underpopulated realms just so they could test themselves against greater numbers. I don't think it was until long after servers started being clustered that this 8v8 code became a thing.

Jaerun wrote:Sorry, I'm not quite 50 yet, and have yet to step into the frontier, but I have to ask, where are these 8v8's happening?

In my experience so far, outside of relic raids, 8v8 is pretty much the only RvR that occurs at 50, so it's everywhere, regardless of the keep situation or expectations of traffic. It's exceedingly difficult to get 8-man groups on Mid to interact with realmmates in any way that would promote larger scale fighting. Most of them won't even join a BG/CG to receive or share intel about enemy locations. It feels like larger scale fights are on the horizon, but so far they've been rare. It's really kinda needed though if the server isn't gonna deteriorate into an arena game solely for the five 8-mans that stick it out. Hopefully some zerg leaders will appear and hopefully the existence of zergs will push 8-mans to consider themselves 8vX groups instead of 8v8 groups. That's a much healthier dynamic, IMO.

Jaerun wrote:Even in "8v8," a RR 6-7 8v8 group vs RR2-3 8v8 group is hardly a "fair fight." 8v12 or 8v16 in those circumstances would be more fair and would certainly be more challenging.

I'd rather lose to 8 players ra dumping on my rr2 group, than lose to an 8 i was clearly winning but lost because some other speed6 flyby group decides to intervene.

It's lame.

There's no challenge.

There's no point.

It's retarded.

Stop doing it.

As Lewk said, it's not FUN.

If my groups in the way of your relic/keep raid sure I'll gladly get ran over. But when I know what group you are, I've killed you before, even that same day as I know you were mindlessly running around circles in breifine looking for us, just give us all a break and kindly say to us you want us to log next time before zerging us down, because that's exactly what it will do.

8v8 was invented on Mordred by my guild and others in mid-SI, early 2002 ish. It was a very competitive thing, the primary RvR loop being from TNN N gate to Druim Ligen and just back and forth. BANDA, Torcan, Dizzy, Xploit were some of the main guilds that really jump started this.

It was great because there were very few adds, no zergs, and everyone respected fights.

Ensley03 wrote:8v8 was invented on Mordred by my guild and others in mid-SI, early 2002 ish. It was a very competitive thing, the primary RvR loop being from TNN N gate to Druim Ligen and just back and forth. BANDA, Torcan, Dizzy, Xploit were some of the main guilds that really jump started this.

It was great because there were very few adds, no zergs, and everyone respected fights.

you didn't invented anything, its simply the way it was on pvp servers, it was the same on camlann except adds were a common thing because it wasn't low pop like mordred. in a guild vs guild environnement its normal that 8v8 rule but on a RvR server it makes no sense to cry for being zerged.

I think the respecting fights thing really started when dark age died tbh. back in the day the population was thriving and I think it was less about 8v8 and more about 8vWhatever. the max grp size is 8, so that's what ppl roam with usually.

the more hardcore 8v8 ppl stuck around and zergs dwindled and populations in general fell, so the 8v8 community started respecting fights etc almost out of necessity. nothing else out to farm rps, don't wanna upset your opponents so they log off for the night etc.

on uthgard a lot of the "rules" seem unnecessary. population is high enough that things are going to get messy anyways, so the "rules" are just an extra reason to get upset when you die. there's so many ppl roaming that don't care about clean fights and it'll just frustrate you if you respect fights and don't get the same treatment.

that being said, I think we've struck a balance. I think enough groups try to respect fights that it remains pleasant when trying to 8v8, for NA time at least.

EU time is street rules dark age with Flump and Tuatha de Funyunan throwin elbows all day.

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So if no one ever adds on another 8v8 fight then what the hell is the point of 3 realms. The reason Mythic went with 3 realms was to make PvP more dangerous. It was meant to keep people on their toes during fights because you never knew when a new enemy might show up and join in. This server just seems like one big open world WoW arena. How can people even say they are playing for nostalgia when 8v8 didnt even exist back then.

8 mans were always around, & playing similar to how we do now on early Mordred days (the best) like Charades said. I first noticed the no add, time to med, respect fights etc come around when Agramon released. Could have happened sooner, but that to me is when it became unspoken code.

dabrixmgp wrote:So if no one ever adds on another 8v8 fight then what the hell is the point of 3 realms. The reason Mythic went with 3 realms was to make PvP more dangerous. It was meant to keep people on their toes during fights because you never knew when a new enemy might show up and join in. This server just seems like one big open world WoW arena. How can people even say they are playing for nostalgia when 8v8 didnt even exist back then.

I actually side with you as far as 3 way fights go. you're right that it's the wildcard element you don't get from other mmos. There's still plenty of groups out that will gladly dive into an 8v8 to make it a 3way. Reallydirty always does. Early on I argued with my various groups about whether or not 3ways are fair game, and in the end I learned that among 8v8 players I'm in the minority.

but it's fine, I've actually been shocked at how quickly people "pull off" and adjust mid fight when the 3rd realm hits. I'd wager that it can actually be very dangerous to add your group to the mix depending on whose fighting. I've been in the middle of some fights vs Hibs when reallydirty adds on and suddenly Playfull or some 3 luri caster train is basically assisting me. it usually does not end well for whoever adds in.