Allyk123 wrote:LOS abuse is when you are deliberately manipulating terrain to get an unfair advantage. Killing a Lord who cannot kill you is the very definition of abuse.

If (and let me stress IF, since i've never seen it on Alb or Mid) a similar tactic was used to take a keep then I would be calling it out the same way.

I agree with Rudra that you are misunderstanding how the class and this strategy work. The lord can hit and kill you, along with guards and bowmen. Most animists cannot do this solo and need other players to support them. The same applies to the Focus pet strategy. It is not free from risk. The primary benefit is you don't need to carry 200+ encumbrance per ram and be able to take it in a very quick time, usually as the keep gets on fire. Much like when people use climbers to put rams up on inner/outer at the same time. There is little chance for defender response.

BTW, with your definition of LOS Abuse, just about every player who has gotten aggro from the lord in a keep then backs out of his range is being abusive. This is most evident in lord rooms where a healer or DPS can out aggro the tank and then runs out of the room where the lord cannot follow, allowing the tank to regain aggro. I would call this understanding of keep mechanics, not abuse.

Fremster is 100% correct, the best way to stop this is go out and kill the players doing this. I wouldn't' call it free RPs though, you may have to work for it.

Ebbie wrote:

Allyk123 wrote:LOS abuse is when you are deliberately manipulating terrain to get an unfair advantage. Killing a Lord who cannot kill you is the very definition of abuse.

If (and let me stress IF, since i've never seen it on Alb or Mid) a similar tactic was used to take a keep then I would be calling it out the same way.

I agree with Rudra that you are misunderstanding how the class and this strategy work. The lord can hit and kill you, along with guards and bowmen. Most animists cannot do this solo and need other players to support them. The same applies to the Focus pet strategy. It is not free from risk. The primary benefit is you don't need to carry 200+ encumbrance per ram and be able to take it in a very quick time, usually as the keep gets on fire. Much like when people use climbers to put rams up on inner/outer at the same time. There is little chance for defender response.

BTW, with your definition of LOS Abuse, just about every player who has gotten aggro from the lord in a keep then backs out of his range is being abusive. This is most evident in lord rooms where a healer or DPS can out aggro the tank and then runs out of the room where the lord cannot follow, allowing the tank to regain aggro. I would call this understanding of keep mechanics, not abuse.

Fremster is 100% correct, the best way to stop this is go out and kill the players doing this. I wouldn't' call it free RPs though, you may have to work for it.

So a lord can kill the Animist(s) shrooming from outisde? Has the coding changed since last night or is this a guess?

The issue existed long before this server started. The issue is what escalated the abomination that is NF.

Its easy to say go and kill an animist... but when there are 2 FG doing it vs. A half-built Alb team, common sense kicks in.

It's ironic that the people defending this are the ones i've noticed benefiting from it.

Yes the lord does shoot and can kill the animist. It will first attack the closest shroom, kill it then the aggro transfers to the animist. Usually you have 2 animists or a healer to draw that aggro off, freeing up the animist to resume placing shrooms in the window.

Allyk123 wrote:Its easy to say go and kill an animist... but when there are 2 FG doing it vs. A half-built Alb team, common sense kicks in.

It's ironic that the people defending this are the ones i've noticed benefiting from it.

Ask yourself why there are 2FG choosing to shroom a window vs taking down doors with a 'half-built' alb team inside defending.

Hint: Its for the same reason a 2-4 FG of Albs will stop attacking a keep with defenders and go pick another target. There are plenty of them without defenders!

Its not a secret, why would anyone voluntarily attack a defended target vs an undefended one? Do you like getting farmed?

The math is easy. The reward for a lvl 8+ keep with 4ish doors is about the same as taking 4-6 lvl 1 keeps with lvl 2 doors. The 8+ will also take you 30-60+ minuets depending on your group(s) makeup vs lvl 1 keeps that take 5-10m each. Throw in the 'half-built' alb group and it makes about as much sense as those albs voluntarily coming out of their keep and attacking the 2fg open field. Its a no brainer.

Moral of the story: Let defenders sit in their keep and rot. This is my advise to all realms. The Keep defense meta is a bigger problem here then your perceived issue with abuse.

#LetThemHaveEmptyKeeps

fremster wrote:Nothings going to change, so what can you do about it? Here's some ideas.

- Claim the keeps and make them level 3+ which then requires hibs have 2+ animists, rather than 1 who's just bored. Lvl 6+ requires 3 animists most likely.
- Kill the animist when you see him doing it.. it's literally free rp. Camp the mile gate after so he can't return.
- Create action. Certain hibs do it because they are bored. They are tired of albs dodging around. It goes like this. Take ailinne. Take arvark. Take Scath. Take Fens.
- When albs are 4fg, take a risk and fight the 1fg defenders rather than running away to an empty keep or waiting to try to get a jump on them. It's just as lame as hibs using animists to take a keep.

This so much!

The kill the animist option. They are really easy to kill usually, and in fact I solo'd Irela and the other two other animists with them on my scout behind Eras a couple weeks ago. So instead of coming on here and trying to shame others and just being a whiney little B, you should put in the effort to defend your realm instead of crying about your opinions which only serves to display ineptitude and lack of guile.

:!: This so much!

The kill the animist option. They are really easy to kill usually, and in fact I solo'd Irela and the other two other animists with them on my scout behind Eras a couple weeks ago. So instead of coming on here and trying to shame others and just being a whiney little B, you should put in the effort to defend your realm instead of crying about your opinions which only serves to display ineptitude and lack of guile.

Antiks you Rascal.

Ebbie wrote:Yes the lord does shoot and can kill the animist. It will first attack the closest shroom, kill it then the aggro transfers to the animist. Usually you have 2 animists or a healer to draw that aggro off, freeing up the animist to resume placing shrooms in the window.

Allyk123 wrote:Its easy to say go and kill an animist... but when there are 2 FG doing it vs. A half-built Alb team, common sense kicks in.

It's ironic that the people defending this are the ones i've noticed benefiting from it.

Ask yourself why there are 2FG choosing to shroom a window vs taking down doors with a 'half-built' alb team inside defending.

Hint: Its for the same reason a 2-4 FG of Albs will stop attacking a keep with defenders and go pick another target. There are plenty of them without defenders!

Its not a secret, why would anyone voluntarily attack a defended target vs an undefended one? Do you like getting farmed?

The math is easy. The reward for a lvl 8+ keep with 4ish doors is about the same as taking 4-6 lvl 1 keeps with lvl 2 doors. The 8+ will also take you 30-60+ minuets depending on your group(s) makeup vs lvl 1 keeps that take 5-10m each. Throw in the 'half-built' alb group and it makes about as much sense as those albs voluntarily coming out of their keep and attacking the 2fg open field. Its a no brainer.

Moral of the story: Let defenders sit in their keep and rot. This is my advise to all realms. The Keep defense meta is a bigger problem here then your perceived issue with abuse.

#LetThemHaveEmptyKeeps

I stopped reading after the first line. The lord will not attack an animist outside a keep.

Allyk123 wrote:I stopped reading after the first line. The lord will not attack an animist outside a keep.

You clearly have no idea so please stop before you embarrass yourself any more.

fremster wrote:

Allyk123 wrote:I stopped reading after the first line. The lord will not attack an animist outside a keep.

You clearly have no idea so please stop before you embarrass yourself any more.

Well clearly you do then... So run it by me then, big chief.... when an Animist(s) outside a keep begins shrooming a window, does he aggro the caster? Will he run out and kill?

Umm, the lord has a bow and hits really hard. Takes about 3-4 hits to kill a fully buffed/temped druid. Casters 2-3 shots.

Allyk123 wrote:

fremster wrote:

Allyk123 wrote:I stopped reading after the first line. The lord will not attack an animist outside a keep.

You clearly have no idea so please stop before you embarrass yourself any more.

Well clearly you do then... So run it by me then, big chief.... when an Animist(s) outside a keep begins shrooming a window, does he aggro the caster? Will he run out and kill?

It seems someone beat me to it. My sympathies.

Quite the irony that you'd say I don't understand, isn't it? Embarrassing is quite the fit response to this. Then again, someone advocating the use of a huge flaw like this should not surprise me.

Allyk123 wrote:Quite the irony that you'd say I don't understand, isn't it? Embarrassing is quite the fit response to this. Then again, someone advocating the use of a huge flaw like this should not surprise me.

Look, the policed rules are pretty simple. Animists are not allowed to place shrooms in objects (such as trees), or in places that cannot be hit via melee. A keep window does not break these rules. Don't mix things you don't like with things that are not allowed.

fremster wrote:

Allyk123 wrote:Quite the irony that you'd say I don't understand, isn't it? Embarrassing is quite the fit response to this. Then again, someone advocating the use of a huge flaw like this should not surprise me.

Look, the policed rules are pretty simple. Animists are not allowed to place shrooms in objects (such as trees), or in places that cannot be hit via melee. A keep window does not break these rules. Don't mix things you don't like with things that are not allowed.

I never once said it was cheating. I said it was a step below it however.

I have made a very clear, justified and correct argument as to why I disagree with this and it has been the same argument as was common place on VN pre-NF.

I think at a time when this server should be appealing to older players to come back, we are seeing LOS abuse which kills the OF idea for many reappear.

If you or anyone else wants to use it to the contempt of your fellow players then go right ahead... but my opinion has been explicitly explained on it and it won't change.

Cheers.

Ally.

Can you explain why it is LOS abuse?

LOS abuse is now called class? What a change in the times....[/quote]

Do you not even know after 1 day what you have written or posted?

Cheers Rudra