Sure, being able to win a fight every 10 min by deleting someone without any counter is worst than being able to win a fight every 30 min... You know only mid has PR ?
Who is dishonest LOL...?

Since when PR is the only rez alternative?

Killing someone on inc IS CERTAINLY NOT winning a fight.

Do you do any actual 8vs8 to think that?

unty wrote:

Torgo wrote:I thought crits against players were capped supposed to be capped at 50%? 99 for mobs? Do I have that backwards?

while in vendo mode you can do full value

nice wall of pain there Flump hehe

Where is that documented? The description of berserker mode says nothing about a 100% crit damage. It just says there is a 100% chance to crit. Why would it not follow the 50% damage cap rule?

I think it's senseless to even try to argue vs someone like you Zob (mid player for sure)...
So i let you think whatever you want.

zerkers were doing this before they discovered tundra. its obviously a higher growth rate but not by much. We documented many hits from zerked backstyles at 900-1200 on a rr4 zerk with no dragonstorm and no relics. nerf the style... dont think itll matter much...

Coldhands here- First off i would like to say thank you to the squishys that are silly enough to stand still when I come running at you. I would point out the the original post displays my biggest hit to-date and far from the average damage. Maybe his shields were down.

I briefly tested tundra in beta vs some chain wearing realm mates, just to see what it would dd. Even though i was told by multiple people that it was a trash RA worthless in group play I was pleasantly surprised with the dmg output. "ohh cool every 10 min i can do a style for about 600 damage.. neat, maybe at High RR it would be fun to front load with against hard to kill targets." . Beta ended, but i had a nagging feeling that if executed properly it might help Mids vs some of the RA's that we really struggle to counter by takeing player out before they could use them. (i.e. SOS / BOF etc). I was convinced that it was worth it for a rr6 zerker to get, and continued to talk about it. Next thing i know, Flump has Dragonstorm and I'm getting screenshots of big damage, and this made me really happy. I immediately respeced, drop to Det 4 (against my better judgement) and spec'd Tundra. Turns out it is great! BUT>>>>> there is a huge catch too. People will always SS the big damage and that is the only part of the story anyone pays attention to, so i would like to clarify a little about this RA. I am really glad that this RA is catching on, I think that it is very much in the spirit of the mechanics of a berserker, and is not broken at all, and here is why...

Here are my brief thoughts on tundra: This RA is so extremely situational that it really is almost a waste, especially at low RR, unless you are using it EXACTLY right. Literally the only thing this RA is good for is to remove a high threat target from the fight at the exact moment that they are most vulnerable/dangerous. While at the same time placing yourself in the position to be instantly focused and probably die. If any one of these criteria are not met when performing tundra it is a complete and utter waste of 10 RA Spec points that could give you Mastery of Pain 3, and give higher damage output over time. You must switch to 2h, you must be in melee range, You must enter vendo (making yourself extremely vulnerable, and often the focus of enemy DPS) and execute the style while still in vendo mode- before getting slammed/Stun/root/snared off of the intended target. Tundra can be Blocked, Parried, Fumble??(I belive, no SS to back up though), Hit Bladeturn, Out of Range, and Miss just like any other weapon style, so if you lag have poor timing get unlucky or attempt vs high defense target it is completely wasted. You must penetrate BT before using it, and then use the style before BT refreshes.. All enemy healers must be locked down, and unable to insta heal because if your target does not die, (many do not) and get a heal, tundra was wasted. Also note not every hit is this big- I have SS of "You perform Tundra for 340, you crit for 58." The damage variance is very high, and we often hit for well under 1k including crit.. You only notice these Big Hits when the DAOC gods smile down on us and grant us an insta kill!

Thanks for reading-- On to the Big Hits
Coldhands
All of these SS are Pre RR5 - Troll Berserker - 99Qual 5.5 speed 2h - Huge Buff variances

Romps wrote:zerkers were doing this before they discovered tundra. its obviously a higher growth rate but not by much. We documented many hits from zerked backstyles at 900-1200 on a rr4 zerk with no dragonstorm and no relics. nerf the style... dont think itll matter much...

1200 is healable, albeit not sustainable healing, but it allows someone to heal and perhaps a slam mez or any sort of cc to occur on the thing hitting that you can react.

1700+ is not. that's gonna 1 shot any caster, and while support classes have higher af, we don't know the limit of this sort of behavior because the numbers are so very high, i wouldn't be shocked if a cleric druid minstrel or bard was 1 shotted from this sort of play too.

Torgo wrote:Where is that documented? The description of berserker mode says nothing about a 100% crit damage. It just says there is a 100% chance to crit. Why would it not follow the 50% damage cap rule?

it would appear there is not mch documentation. There is a grab bag here that mentions it https://web.archive.org/web/20041101133819/http://www.camelotherald.com/more/720.php

not that grab bags are 100% correct everytime

I'm sure they tested it on live....

unty wrote:

Torgo wrote:Where is that documented? The description of berserker mode says nothing about a 100% crit damage. It just says there is a 100% chance to crit. Why would it not follow the 50% damage cap rule?

it would appear there is not mch documentation. There is a grab bag here that mentions it https://web.archive.org/web/20041101133819/http://www.camelotherald.com/more/720.php

not that grab bags are 100% correct everytime

I'm sure they tested it on live....

That's good enough for me. Thanks for the link!

@Coldhands, you performed your big hits against caster with shields down and players in drop gear.

Eastsea and Deanora (maybe also Raunzi) had no shield buffs up or were sitting down when you hit them, otherwise you would not get this +800 style damage numbers.
Korzima got hit for 855 (-38) and Draedark for 616 (-12), if you look at those crap resists they for sure were running in drop gear.
You hit Pushkeen the merc for 465 (-198) damage, what seems to be ok with 2hand.
Cyrexi the infil for 512 (-97), she is vulnerable to crush damage so this is some bad damage but maybe you had a str/con debuff...

I start thinking this style is not even worth the 10 points, you could perform similar damage with a Sledgehammer style, but unlike flump you are probably not running a low quick temp and also you are missing Dragonstorm.

m0e wrote:@Coldhands, you performed your big hits against caster with shields down and players in drop gear.

Eastsea and Deanora (maybe also Raunzi) had no shield buffs up or were sitting down when you hit them, otherwise you would not get this +800 style damage numbers.
Korzima got hit for 855 (-38) and Draedark for 616 (-12), if you look at those crap resists they for sure were running in drop gear.
You hit Pushkeen the merc for 465 (-198) damage, what seems to be ok with 2hand.
Cyrexi the infil for 512 (-97), she is vulnerable to crush damage so this is some bad damage but maybe you had a str/con debuff...

I start thinking this style is not even worth the 10 points, you could perform similar damage with a Sledgehammer style, but unlike flump you are probably not running a low quick temp and also you are missing Dragonstorm.

That is exactly my point! People are thinking this is an insta kill everytime RA, when clearly its very situational.
Correct, my temp is +50 Qucik when 2h, I have 99 qual wep that is faster than Dragonstorm, so clearly I am not fully optimized to take advantage of Tundra at the moment.
Did you read my post. I specifically said that i probably hit him with his sheilds down. Also, VS Cyrexi I was solo, with no buffs/Charges up, and was Str/Con Debuffed.

So just to make sure we're all on the same page here... per the ppl using the "ability", it's ok because it only 1-shots SOME of the time?

Oh and the "don't get hit" defense, love it.

Question: how much dmg does the dmg add chant/buff add on a style like that?

PS: fully templated elf with 26+3 slash resists - 1.2k from Flump with all shields up

My problem with Tundra and the other RA styles is that their growth rate might be too high or something wrong with the base unstyled dmg , leme calculate some , do we have any documentation showing the gr rate? or Very high dmg is all we got?

Funny how little difference there is in this game vs when idiots in wow arena defend their classes 1 shot mechanic as somehow balanced or justifiable.

Flump wrote:

I ve taken your dmg vs Amaterasu 735(-245)
I get a growth style of 1.34 for Tundra which is ok ..but problem is with the base dmg ..418 unstyled base dmg adding a 26% resist is something like 331(-87) ..i play arms and fully bufed with styles like crippling blow i can barely get this dmg on a caster ..i know troll has extra 30 dmg but still i think base dmg gets too high when using tundra. I d be curious to see a normal style like Conquer on casters Flump so we can see if your unstyled dmg is indeed this high .

VS Atrival Bard your unstyled dmg comes up 483 including resists(total dmg) ..and thats vs 19% absorb , fact that he s weak to crush etc doesnt matter as total dmg including resists is important, who the ****** hits 483 dmg 2h unstyled vs 19% abs studded??

The problem its in the unstyled dmg with Tundra .. as the growth is 1.34 which is ok something like Very High dmg style , but still i hope Tundra style respects the game mechanics of daoc styles where quickness reduces style growth same for haste .. so when having full bufs + haste Tundra shouldnt add 1.34 growth......... less then that.

PS I had a rr8 bersy called Motaro on Uthg 1.0 and played with Flump in grps many times , and i went for augm str4 and we had +26 stats in temp before so str stat was somewhere around 400 when buffed .. but 480 dmg total dmg including resists ..we can say 400+ unstyled i havent done vs anything when using 2h .


This is the style : Combat Style: Opening: None Weapon type: Any Fatigue cost: None Damage: Very high Attack bonus: Very high Defense bonus: Medium Note: Using Tundra and Left Axe at the same time will greatly reduce the damage of the

style.http://web.archive.org/web/200308101133 ... erker.html

oLd-Sneakers wrote:Called tundra style.

Warriors got doombringer.

Vendo+5.8 spd dragonfury + tundra style = 1200-1600 dmg depending on qu, asd debuff, and weapon speed. Was same back in the day 1.65.

Mids answer to BoF, SoS etc.

Deal with it

We will , once its fixed as atm its buged dmg beeing too high for a Very High dmg style with 1.34 growth rate.

MotaroReloaded wrote:My problem with Tundra and the other RA styles is that their growth rate might be too high or something wrong with the base unstyled dmg , leme calculate some , do we have any documentation showing the gr rate? or Very high dmg is all we got?

I'm sure you have no problem running round in sos able to do whatever you like without breaking speed though.