I did some testing with exactly the same characters over on the other server and i know people believe that warriors are peelers on this server instead of dps but i really didnt understand why. These test are with 50 spec in hammer and using the conquer style since this is probably the most used style in rvr on a tank. So using the weapon speed calculator to made the dual weild swing speed as close to the 2h as i could I adjusted the quickness and haste accordingly. Was very interesting to see that not only was the warriors 2h greater than the zerk it was also more than the dual weild. Using left axe styles would yield a different result and get the damage closer also with the addition of 2 weapons bubbles break faster, more chance of weapon proc etc and berserk mode. However in real pvp situations the warrior gains a shield for stuns and defence as well as higher dmg output with 2h and armor upgrade over zerk.

zerker 50 spec 355 str weaponskill 1898 228 quick 5.6 speed 17% haste 498 average damage over 50 swings , weapon speed 5.6
zerker dual wield 50spec with 3.6 weapon and 3.5 136 quick no haste = 3.01 sec per swing, 397 average damage over 50 swings

warrior 50 spec 355 str weaponskill 1984 228 quick 5.6 speed 17% haste 521 average damage over 50 swings , weapon speed 5.6 = 3.08 sec per swing

In real rvr situations you don't hit for cap damage. On level 1 mobs the warri damage is of course higher, he is on a higher damage table. In normal rvr, against cap resist player I hit for ~300 with 2h, on targets vulnerable to crush around 400. But flump deals quite the same damage in less than half of the swingtime. I think it is save to say that zerker damage over time is double the damage of a warri in real rvr. Plus better defense penetration because of dual wield

This was on a lvl 50 mob.
so doing the math zerker 2h = 165 dps
zerker dual weild 131 dps
warrior 2h 173 dps
so with zerker in full buffs with same weapons now hit every 1.93 instead of 3.01 seconds but you drop your per hit damage to 356 since the quickness swings faster but hits less hard.. so the actual dps would be 184

So yes there 6% increase in overall dps.. but nothing like most people think of "DOUBLE DPS" and "TWICE AS FAST".
Its a tiny increase in damage with no stuns and horrible defense. With 30 minute purge a 9 second stun can win / loose a fight even in a group setting. Berserk mode would def increase dps at a even higher penalty to defense as well as becoming main target to opponent from the visual cue.

All im trying to say is that instead of just adding more beserkers/savages to a group try 2 warriors.. the Uthgard community is basically stuck in a rut of running these exact same setups. Hibernia runs multiple heros and plays them as dps with great results.

FYI I don't play a warrior

Which hib groups have you seen running multiple heroes here? The only successdul tank groups I've seen run zero heroes or just one.

isocleas2 wrote:Which hib groups have you seen running multiple heroes here? The only successdul tank groups I've seen run zero heroes or just one.

Gotta side with Astro on this one.

Hero is an inferior DPS class. You're better off going with a Blademaster.

I have seen a couple of NA groups run a Hero, but that's not because the class is optimal, it's just that people who are good at playing this game can make most classes work because at the end of the day, you win in this game with team play (and RAs), not setup.

In hib its not really a discussion since blademasters can wield a shield, so there defensive as well as offensive..so comparing them to hero's is almost identical in a utility standpoint. In midguard there is no shield option for zerk/savage.. Im sure about any zerk would give up a few parry points / cap dmg for an anytime stun..

The point of discussion was DPS.. and as a warrior its viable, if not superior with the addition of stuns/defense + armor as a tank slot.

I would love to see some data proving that the output of a 2h on a warrior was far less damage than a zerker as the community seems to think.

jrob81 wrote:In hib its not really a discussion since blademasters can wield a shield, so there defensive as well as offensive..so comparing them to hero's is almost identical in a utility standpoint. In midguard there is no shield option for zerk/savage.. Im sure about any zerk would give up a few parry points / cap dmg for an anytime stun..

The point of discussion was DPS.. and as a warrior its viable, if not superior with the addition of stuns/defense + armor as a tank slot.

I would love to see some data proving that the output of a 2h on a warrior was far less damage than a zerker as the community seems to think.

The output of a 2h warrior is far less damage than a zerker. That's what I think.

According to my testing you are wrong. Feel free to test it yourself and see.

jrob81 wrote:According to my testing you are wrong. Feel free to test it yourself and see.

Most people are sure somthing is true without having tested by themselves. You did a great job testing, but its useless since people wont believe you cause they are rigid moralist.

if you hit for cap dmg 1 swing is enough.
it doesnt make sense to compare dps with your weapon speeds for the zerker. need to use 4.2 + fastest to compare vs slowest 2h for the warrior.
you should also hit the dummy and average over a certain amount of styled hits. cap dmg doesnt show your real dps.
also use caped dmg stats eg dq and str, and same haste buffs.
your test is skewed

Warrior might have higher dps in PVE.

Zerker with better defense/guard penetration and being able to get less hits in PBT will have a superior dps.

Im gonna ressurect this dead post just to put in my 2 cents:

Zerkers do in fact superior damage compared to warriors. You seem to have tested raw, unabridged combat damage and warriors could out perform in that area, by a nominal amount. However, in true application of player vs player, certain core mechanics come into play. For one, dual wield has a flat bonus vs defenses, allowing more burst damage to a zerker vs a warrior. Also, the zerker core ability Vendo Form gives 100% crit on all hits, at the expense of any defenses at all. This plays into the next part. Warriors do in fact have better ability to CC via a stun, and inflict damage without chance of defense.

But what it all comes down to, is what does the class bring to the table as far as group utility. This is where the zerker beats the warrior imo. Charge, vendo, prevent flight, and ridiculous burst damage. A warrior really only brings a shield stun, which is great, except in mid the pac healer in every group is going to set that stun timer every time anyways. Otherwise he just is a nuisance to a kiting caster or healer, but will probably never catch them. So doing 3% more damage really doesnt matter.

Russiancrushian wrote:Im gonna ressurect this dead post just to put in my 2 cents:

Zerkers do in fact superior damage compared to warriors. You seem to have tested raw, unabridged combat damage and warriors could out perform in that area, by a nominal amount. However, in true application of player vs player, certain core mechanics come into play. For one, dual wield has a flat bonus vs defenses, allowing more burst damage to a zerker vs a warrior. Also, the zerker core ability Vendo Form gives 100% crit on all hits, at the expense of any defenses at all. This plays into the next part. Warriors do in fact have better ability to CC via a stun, and inflict damage without chance of defense.

But what it all comes down to, is what does the class bring to the table as far as group utility. This is where the zerker beats the warrior imo. Charge, vendo, prevent flight, and ridiculous burst damage. A warrior really only brings a shield stun, which is great, except in mid the pac healer in every group is going to set that stun timer every time anyways. Otherwise he just is a nuisance to a kiting caster or healer, but will probably never catch them. So doing 3% more damage really doesnt matter.

Charge ability in 1.65 is a joke.

Left axe style has much more higher growth style than hammer. That where the big dps come from. If a zerker only spam conquer.. He has picked the wrong class to play.

BobSauceJuicy wrote:Left axe style has much more higher growth style than hammer. That where the big dps come from. If a zerker only spam conquer.. He has picked the wrong class to play.

Actually, most decent zerkers will use conquer as their main style. Keeping the target under control is more important than dropping something right away(which you can't do anyway against most decent groups, unless you get an insanely good inc and somehow most of their RAs are down). Once a target is stunned, you can spam snowsquall for the stun duration or if you're higher rr, you can spam conquer until you hit prevent flight, then do like 2 snowsqualls and keep on doing conquer as main style and your anytime or frost hammer as followup. In certain situations if you think you have a good chance of dropping something fast or making them burn instants, you can do the whole back style chain even though normally it's not recommended due to the bleed of icy brilliance.

Anyway, it's really not about potential spike damage, Zerkers are more consistent damage dealers than warriors because dmg over time > spike dmg, not to mention dual wield, potential to deal damage when you want to with vendo and you also have the 360 degrees evade. This is really nothing but a paper daoc discussion and the 2 warrior theory collapses as soon as it exits vacuum and enters reality where players actually play against you. Having two warriors is not the worst choice in the world, but one is more than enough.