Well true against enhanced evade classes, i d still vote for red resists over 11more blade any time i guess.

warden are really really perfect for stable / balanced your group it is a + on every group hib for 8 mans so all group can need a warden expect on hybrid group but on hybrid setup have warden can be fun and give more resistance physic and magic at your group

In my mind, Warden are only viable in Tank setups. But tankgroups are a Midgardthing, not a Hibernian.
Never box with a boxer, never ring with a ringer. And never fight meleemidgroups with a meleehibgroup.
So i guess warden are not made for 8 man.

But ofc in smallmen or zergs they are potentially great for all 30 minutes....

Warden are very nice for soloplay!

There's been successful hib tank grps since the beginning of the server, especially now with hibs having 3 str relics. Broken speed pulse/amnesia, 2x AM, 2x Group purge, twif there's alot to work with. I wouldn't give up on hib tank groups just yet.

isocleas2 wrote: Broken speed pulse/amnesia.

What is wrong with amnesia and speed pulse?
I agree on that relics are much too powerful limiting some fun.

Why do people always want wardens to side snare? Desn't almost every other class have access to a snare that's the same, or arguably better? Do people ask bards to side snare? They can do it too... but I'd probably get kicked off the server if I rolled a bard and started snaring. CD / spear have much easier to land back snares, and many classes get a casted snare, some instas.

???

Elije wrote:Why do people always want wardens to side snare? Desn't almost every other class have access to a snare that's the same, or arguably better? Do people ask bards to side snare? They can do it too... but I'd probably get kicked off the server if I rolled a bard and started snaring. CD / spear have much easier to land back snares, and many classes get a casted snare, some instas.

???

It depends on the group setup.

Bards can't play their songs when they're wielding weapons and are often busy casting amnesia/mezz/demezz.

Melee damage dealers usually assist each other to get enemies down as fast as possible (if there are other peelers).
Since wardens don't really deal damage (compared to Heroes and Blademasters) it's often their job to peel with side snare.

If you run with an Eld it's usually their first priority to cast nearsight/disease/debuffs. Chanters have their pets to snare but in caster/hybrid groups they're also usually assist leaders because of their heat debuff. Valewalkers and Champions are kinda rare in RvR and their snare has a 20s cooldown.

I'm not actually expecting the bard to do it. I was emphasizing how ridiculous the concept would be.

Warden's demand should be tied to DPS demand, because of the damage add chant, and the need for PBT. The secret is that when not twisting, they're most effective at healing. Druids get the best healing toys, but if they spec 50 in nurture for top haste, they can only get to 20 regrowth at best, nowhere near a spreadheal or better spec heals, and atrocious baseline heals. Bards can get 50 nurture for top power song and still have great regrowth (43), but they have a huge opportunity cost of music's mez toys and resists.

A Warden doesn't get anything special in his healing toybox, but he can spec 49 nurture for its best ability and still get as high as 44 regrowth. He has the right combination of decent spec points, not overwhelming choices in where to put them, and great effectiveness from where he does invest them. At as high as 43 regrowth, he can spec 10 blades, and theoretically be good to go on side snares... but why would he in this group? He's gonna be too busy healing. 10 blades is so he has the option to solo between groups.

is just that wardens are usually taking the spot that would go to a peel tank, so they need to fill that roll in addition to the other stuff.

Which druid goes 50 Nurture? So the followong argues are worthless. Wardens job is NOT to do DMG or heal, so u warden are rupt and Peel Rolle left.


Warden is slotwaste in 8 man, except pure melleegroups, then its nice to have 2 of them for doublebubble.

Snippeuse wrote:warden are really really perfect for stable / balanced your group it is a + on every group hib for 8 mans so all group can need a warden expect on hybrid group but on hybrid setup have warden can be fun and give more resistance physic and magic at your group

So u block a slot just for resists and a pbt?
Slotwaste imo

Roxxor wrote:Which druid goes 50 Nurture? So the followong argues are worthless.

You're swapping cause and effect. Druids don't spec 50 nurture because they're expected to heal. If they weren't expected to heal, they could do so and build a better group with better buffs and resists.

I think i got your point. But youre still wrong.

What makes a healclass to the mainhealerclass?

It is the relation of how much hitpoints you can recover for how much manacost?

Druid is winner in this contest, so drood is mainhealer class.
This lead us to the need that healimportant spec need to get raised to lower the healvariance and New spells and More efficiancy.

No other class can replace droods Rolle AS mainhealer.

Same process with buffs.

Warden are not a Bad vor weak class but their roles are limited

Roxxor wrote:

Snippeuse wrote:warden are really really perfect for stable / balanced your group it is a + on every group hib for 8 mans so all group can need a warden expect on hybrid group but on hybrid setup have warden can be fun and give more resistance physic and magic at your group

So u block a slot just for resists and a pbt?
Slotwaste imo

btw you forgot warden can base buff and bard can be more agressif because he don t have to pay attention on this buff because the warden has buff the group
warden can heal for save life and snare side if he get time or rupt caster and the RA twf is very cool

For me warden can do everything and i love warden in hib group yes maybe he don t do things very good like druid or peeler but he can do more things good and on this point warden is very good class and if i have to choice under loose 1 spot dps and take a warden i will prefer take a warden without any doubt

Roxxor wrote:I think i got your point. But youre still wrong.

Fair enough points, if a little on the nose here. :p

This would be describes in economics as absolute advantage versus competitive advantage. In absolute advantage, it's something one does better than anyone else. In competitive advantage, it's what one can do that is better than the other things that one can do. Druids have an absolute advantage in healing, but I'm not convinced that they have a competitive advantage, and economists believe that operating where one has a competitive advantage is the more efficient model.

What bothers me about this game -- whether it's Uthgard, 1.65, or DAoC in general -- is that we have a very tight group meta. It's not just about who is welcome in the group, or even about how much variance is allowed in the specs and templates for the group members. It's that we expect group members to do ridiculous things.

A better example of that than wardens vs druids is blademasters being expected to spec 42 shield for slam, an insanely expensive investment for a tool they don't use in primary combat. But this thread is about wardens. You'd think a stacking damage add and PBT would make a group without a warden unthinkable, but they end up being situational because they need other melees in the group to justify their existence. Similarly, druid nurture buffs should be vital, but those top buffs are mainly melee friendly.