Magicco wrote:well so someone lied to me, when he was telling me, you received a list about end/beginning of 2012/2013

The list which was created by Nayru exists but that does not change the fact that its not testable.

There was a flashing of hope when we saw that the Mythic database still has some old RA related spells available.
http://www.etaew.net/daocdb/spell.php?id=3622

Anyway, is there anything specific you guys need researched?

Old RA's is the one thing I'd like to see implemented here, and was originally the greatest drive of me clinging to this server from the start 3years ago hearing after reading these news:
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=20661

I honestly feel crippled and suspended mid-air in some situations having this awkward New RA setting without the ToA bonuses/Content that it should have.

I know we had this debate before, but anyway:

First of all, YOU guys asked the community what kind of server they wanted - OF or NF. They voted OF and so NF zones were removed and OF zones were brought in. Fine. But did it ever cross your mind that a lot of people voted for OF specifically because of the RA system? You want an old-school DAoC experience. That is a *huge* part of that!

Are you telling me that this issue - not being able to test OF RAs - was not foreseeable? And that after working on this server for the better part of 10 years that you guys still don't have enough common sense and experience to be able to come up with a reasonable approximation of OF RAs? That would be quite sad tbh. No, instead you consider 'tweaking' an RA system that was *never* designed to work without TOA boni. I assume that you have given this some thought and thus must have realized by now that this is likely going to be a much bigger mess than somewhat-close-to-being correct OF RAs. Let alone that this is then not going to be a 'classic' server, invalidating both all past arguments and making entirely unnecessary many of the feature downgrades that you have forced upon the community.

What the hell, really..

fiskgrodan wrote:Remove gems from patch 1.72

Keep rvr horse mounts and from darkness rising expansion and sparkling unicorns, and even implement bardings for them.

Nice consistency.

I don't get why they are so far on the custom track with mounts, some GM's just like their ponys which makes reasonable arguments obsolet probably

But for the +all gems, everyone knew it's a ToA item which will be and has to be removed at some point, so stop crying.
About Old RA we don't have to talk anyway, asking the community what they want and finally deciding to rather make custom new RA's is yeah....

you dont even try it, where is the problem about making nayrus list public, take a look at the Database, let ppl research and so on?

Magicco wrote:you dont even try it, where is the problem about making nayrus list public, take a look at the Database, let ppl research and so on?

Its not testable. Nothing can change this hard fact. You have an over simplificated view of how it is to implement such stuff. Take our TWF for example. I cant count how many changes we did to it in the past as we had differences in details. Details matter.

No reason to bring up old RA at the moment. Theres not even time for it. We still have to crawl through hundreds of other issues.

With this tough crowd, I would not implement old RA without substantial evidence of it being correctly implemented. Behold the bug reports that would explode on the boards

Sekunda wrote:With this tough crowd, I would not implement old RA without substantial evidence of it being correctly implemented. Behold the bug reports that would explode on the boards

So, as we already do with New RA's. Players will present evidence to prove how it should work!

Blue wrote:

Magicco wrote:you dont even try it, where is the problem about making nayrus list public, take a look at the Database, let ppl research and so on?

Its not testable. Nothing can change this hard fact. You have an over simplificated view of how it is to implement such stuff. Take our TWF for example. I cant count how many changes we did to it in the past as we had differences in details. Details matter.

No reason to bring up old RA at the moment. Theres not even time for it. We still have to crawl through hundreds of other issues.

Imo Old RA´s and defence penetration is the 2 key point to make this server a true classic server that ppl will love. SI is important to but its PvE so its another story. I cant see any other issues with a higher prio.

For me its even better to implement some RA´s untested then having totally unbalanced NF RA´s who only works with ToA stats (hello aog, viper, tougness, pd just to mention some). After the implemenation the community and crew can start working on tweaks and bugs together.

Blue wrote:The list which was created by Nayru exists but that does not change the fact that its not testable.

What you miss is that it doesn't matter how much you can test an RA set that doesn't work for our setting, it still doesn't work for our setting.

Viper in Old Ras is a doubling of the effects of all venoms, kinda like viper3, but its on a 30 minutes cool down. No matter how well you can test Viper3 and get it "livelike" the fact that its passive, when our balance calls for a once every 30 minutes (on 1 class mind you, the NS, not all three), means no matter how accurate you have it to livelike, you are still inferrior to a poorly tested implementation of old ras.

Charge in a 1.69 setting. Well defense penetration doesn't work here, I guess that's almost a good thing since we don't have bodyguard. But with 1.69 there won't be power effecient major heals, or fast casting greater heals. How exactly do you keep a caster alive using spread or big baseline heal with working defense penetration, and charge, but no grapple/bodyguard? No matter how precise you have NF charge implemented, it doesn't work.

You can do this for every RA, NF tested, fails for our patch.

Also, all the RAs that are hard to test were for the most part terrible anyway. The ones that were critical and everyone specced are the ones whose values are not in question. No one doubts how Determination worked in Old RAs, its the random spirit dmg + to melee on a timer crap that no one specced for which you will miss data. So make them crappy, like they were, and no one will spec them, like no one ever did.....

anyway useless discussion as it never comes, but NF RAs no matter how well tested just make a mockery of our patch setting in RvR.


Defense penetration is the other 800lbs gorilla in the room.


I do want to stick up for NF in two ways however. Hybrid determination and Mastery of Focus are great.

_Oglop_ wrote:

Sekunda wrote:With this tough crowd, I would not implement old RA without substantial evidence of it being correctly implemented. Behold the bug reports that would explode on the boards

So, as we already do with New RA's. Players will present evidence to prove how it should work!

True... make no mistake, I really want old RA, I just sympathize with the staff in regards to it being hard to implement.

Force wrote:
Also, all the RAs that are hard to test were for the most part terrible anyway. The ones that were critical and everyone specced are the ones whose values are not in question. No one doubts how Determination worked in Old RAs, its the random spirit dmg + to melee on a timer crap that no one specced for which you will miss data. So make them crappy, like they were, and no one will spec them, like no one ever did.....

I think this sums it up pretty well. Of course w can start bickering over all the tiny details of any given RAs, but from what I can tell, there are three categories of RAs with regards to an OF conversion:

1) The main RAs that will be specced for sure and that exist within the NF setting
Those can be ported over, with whatever tweaks are deemed necessary based on available data. It will be up to the community to then present evidence for further modification. Just as we are already doing for NF RAs. No major balancing issues are to be expected here (as in completely screwing up RvR).
2) Some class RAs with somewhat obscure mechanics that don't exist in the NF setting.
Mentalist 'Breaking the tether' comes to mind. Technically, the working of this RA should be clear, but perhaps not necessarily how to implement it. Again, this should be doable, keeping in mind that the community will have to dig up evidence for changes or concerns arise regarding its balancing impact (i.e. the common sense option).
3). Completely weird RAs that don't exist anymore and no one used anyway
Low priority; people will have to research if they want to see it implemented.

So I still don't see why this is supposed be such a main deal. RAs are already ****** up and will never be fixable within Uthgards setting. I think having a reasonably well-working OF setting - even with some errors (that we can help fix using established procedures..) - is a lot more desirable than the mess we have right now.

We will not implement old RA in the near future. Don't set your hopes too high.

We said we will make adjustments to some RA's like Viper3 or PD to fit our setting. This has already been discussed in player council.

Blue wrote:We will not implement old RA in the near future. Don't set your hopes too high.

We said we will take adjustments to some RA's like Viper3 and PD to fit our setting. This has already been discussed in player council.

Det5 was obtainable in old RA at RR3, purge should be 30 minutes and is only 4 points on main tanks for instant purge.

That's RR3L something versus almost RR6.

See how NF has incorrect implementation of basic tank RAs? again, no matter how close to livelike is its still totally wrong.

You are missing all the MoAs. The + buff bonus RAs and the + cast speed RA.

Mastery of Concentration in Old Ras was 15 seconds of 100% every 30 minutes. Mastery of Concentration in New RAs is totally wrong, its 30 seconds every 10 minutes. Twice as much MoC time with 1/3 the cooldown, but with this strange penalty, that totally messes up the balance of MoC from our setting.

Augmented stats scaled linearly (all the passives did) in Old RAs, so that as you specced deeper into them you were penalized, the NF setting favors higher RRs. This is in addition to the things like way more expensive purge and DET that further makes NF favor higher RRs.

NF misses dualist reflexes, Dodger, messes up who has access to mastery of blocking...

NF puts SoS on all 3 realms...

Only hibs should have often purges, through group purge...

Hibs are missing their pet counter in the ment, STT.

List is endless....

Blue wrote:We will not implement old RA in the near future. Don't set your hopes too high.

We said we will make adjustments to some RA's like Viper3 or PD to fit our setting. This has already been discussed in player council.

And that's already the wrong road