I'm trying to decide what stealth class I'll be rolling for strictly solo RvR...

If this turns out to be a truly buffbot-free server/PvP environment, then it would seem to me like a well played melee ranger could thrive on Uthgard... Am I missing something here?

What do you guys think?

ranger VS assa/sb = you'll lose because of your lack of "See Hidden"

Feuille wrote:ranger VS assa/sb = you'll lose because of your lack of "See Hidden"

So you're convinced they'll win just because they saw you first & (probably) hit you first?

Feuille wrote:ranger VS assa/sb = you'll lose because of your lack of "See Hidden"

Seeing first and landing Perf are two very different things

Without a crit openeing i think Melee Ranger Spec wins most of the time.

one word Dodger.. Inf with Dodger means even if they miss perf they WILL evade and you'll eat DF in the face. Rangers have no PD so they would basically be a poor BM without Parry and low weaponskill

Melee rangers are absolutely horrible. Actually, all archers at this patch level will suck. The only thing archers are good for in old RAs is for adding. You will lose fair fights with assassins 10 out of 10 times, and there will be 10+ assassins playing for every 1 archer. The only reason archers did OK with new RAs is because they could see the assassin first and get a crit shot off. That advantage is gone.

Jaysun wrote:one word Dodger.. Inf with Dodger means even if they miss perf they WILL evade and you'll eat DF in the face. Rangers have no PD so they would basically be a poor BM without Parry and low weaponskill

Unless the Ranger has the same level of Dodger. I plan to go to dodger 4, that puts me at 27% before stats . Thats basically Friar evade. Then factor in Pathfindng: dex/qui buff will really up evade for a ranger far more than a potion for an assassin. Same for str and high damage add self buffs. these up your stats far more than potions at this time.

Then think at higher rank with ignore pain and avoid pain. i think melee rangers will be able to hold their own. But not so much for teh otehr 2 archers

pirhana7 wrote:

Jaysun wrote:one word Dodger.. Inf with Dodger means even if they miss perf they WILL evade and you'll eat DF in the face. Rangers have no PD so they would basically be a poor BM without Parry and low weaponskill

Unless the Ranger has the same level of Dodger. I plan to go to dodger 4, that puts me at 27% before stats . Thats basically Friar evade. Then factor in Pathfindng: dex/qui buff will really up evade for a ranger far more than a potion for an assassin. Same for str and high damage add self buffs. these up your stats far more than potions at this time.

Then think at higher rank with ignore pain and avoid pain. i think melee rangers will be able to hold their own. But not so much for teh otehr 2 archers

that's not who it works; assassins with dodger 4 will be near the 50% evade cap or above it-more on this later. Evade is halved vs dual wield so the assassin will be at 25-30%, the ranger with dodger 4 wll be at 13%. Once you get hit with disease and debuffed, that lowers your WS even further and the assassin evade does up even higher.

I played one of the Original Melee Rangers on Percival well before their FOTM, we had PD to help mitigate Assassin's superior damage. WE had purge to use after an Assassin unloaded on us and IP. And even then a competent Assassin could still win, without our instas were were dead.

Rangers in this DaOC going melee will be Assassin fodder.

Dodger and evade cap are effected by your attackers WS, so assassins will want to have at least dodger 3-4 so they'll be sitting at 47%. I've seen Infs with Dodger 5 go unstealthed vs Tanks and win.

AP, IP, and TS can be iwin buttons in most situations. But they're definitley cooldown and rr dependent.

Jaysun wrote:

pirhana7 wrote:

Jaysun wrote:one word Dodger.. Inf with Dodger means even if they miss perf they WILL evade and you'll eat DF in the face. Rangers have no PD so they would basically be a poor BM without Parry and low weaponskill

Unless the Ranger has the same level of Dodger. I plan to go to dodger 4, that puts me at 27% before stats . Thats basically Friar evade. Then factor in Pathfindng: dex/qui buff will really up evade for a ranger far more than a potion for an assassin. Same for str and high damage add self buffs. these up your stats far more than potions at this time.

Then think at higher rank with ignore pain and avoid pain. i think melee rangers will be able to hold their own. But not so much for teh otehr 2 archers

that's not who it works; assassins with dodger 4 will be near the 50% evade cap or above it-more on this later. Evade is halved vs dual wield so the assassin will be at 25-30%, the ranger with dodger 4 wll be at 13%. Once you get hit with disease and debuffed, that lowers your WS even further and the assassin evade does up even higher.

I played one of the Original Melee Rangers on Percival well before their FOTM, we had PD to help mitigate Assassin's superior damage. WE had purge to use after an Assassin unloaded on us and IP. And even then a competent Assassin could still win, without our instas were were dead.

Rangers in this DaOC going melee will be Assassin fodder.

Dodger and evade cap are effected by your attackers WS, so assassins will want to have at least dodger 3-4 so they'll be sitting at 47%. I've seen Infs with Dodger 5 go unstealthed vs Tanks and win.

Thanks for all the info. You have experienced Ranger as where I have not. I was on the other side as a Inf and Scout. I will agree you are correct for the most part, Melee Rangers wont be as strong as they were at other times. But i don't think they will be as weak as you think. The only reason i say this is because I think you are basing everything from previous experiences with everyone having buff bot buffs.

With no Buff bots here...When you look at the weak alchemy version of stat buff for this time plus that fact that they only have 1 charge and last 10min I see it being a big factor. I just dont see most people trying to carry all 5 potions with such a limited inventory otherwise they will ahve no buffs after an hour and be buying / making them non stop to rvr. I think most will just carry the 2 spec potions +30/30 and +30/30. SBs will also probably carry the +20str potion but i just dont see most people carrying all 5 or even 4 for the most part.

Now look at Ranger Buffs, not only do they give you much higher stats than the potion but your buffs are allowing you to have plenty of room to carry the other 2 or 3 potions so you can actually be fully buffed or just go with str/con and dex potions. This is based off of 48 pathfinding with 48dex/qui and 41 str but those number also go up a little from bonus of speccing high on that line. then factor in alot of enemies wont even have the base +20 potions so you will likely have +50 more dex and str from buffs/potions than most your enemies. I think this is what makes it more of an even melee fight than you think.

Still too early to tell how good a melee ranger will be at 50 but in the BGs I am winning against all other stealth in straight melee 3 out of 4 times. Getting the evade 5 second stun off seems to be a fight changer and 100% win. I know albs will have a better stun in the lvl 50 game.

Auto Train bow is still hurting people and killing casters. I generally get a melee class to 50% with bow and easily finish them off in melee.

So far i am really enjoying the melee Ranger.
Once i hit level 25 and got evade 3 and evade peirce stunn it made it so i could pull yellows very fast with minimal downtime.

pirhana7 wrote:Thanks for all the info. You have experienced Ranger as where I have not. I was on the other side as a Inf and Scout. I will agree you are correct for the most part, Melee Rangers wont be as strong as they were at other times. But i don't think they will be as weak as you think. The only reason i say this is because I think you are basing everything from previous experiences with everyone having buff bot buffs.

With no Buff bots here...When you look at the weak alchemy version of stat buff for this time plus that fact that they only have 1 charge and last 10min I see it being a big factor. I just dont see most people trying to carry all 5 potions with such a limited inventory otherwise they will ahve no buffs after an hour and be buying / making them non stop to rvr. I think most will just carry the 2 spec potions +30/30 and +30/30. SBs will also probably carry the +20str potion but i just dont see most people carrying all 5 or even 4 for the most part.

Now look at Ranger Buffs, not only do they give you much higher stats than the potion but your buffs are allowing you to have plenty of room to carry the other 2 or 3 potions so you can actually be fully buffed or just go with str/con and dex potions. This is based off of 48 pathfinding with 48dex/qui and 41 str but those number also go up a little from bonus of speccing high on that line. then factor in alot of enemies wont even have the base +20 potions so you will likely have +50 more dex and str from buffs/potions than most your enemies. I think this is what makes it more of an even melee fight than you think.

I think your theory is sound. I think the biggest problem archers (all of 'em, not just rangers) will have in this patch is the See Hidden RA. I remember it being stupidly powerful at the time. Truesight was also stupidly powerful but it is a long cooldown active where See Hidden is passive. Oh well, I'm working on a Ranger right now so we'll see how it goes. I'm gonna build out a hybrid spec and if it is really miserable than I'll make something else. No worries.

pirhana7 wrote:I think your theory is sound. I think the biggest problem archers (all of 'em, not just rangers) will have in this patch is the See Hidden RA. I remember it being stupidly powerful at the time. Truesight was also stupidly powerful but it is a long cooldown active where See Hidden is passive. Oh well, I'm working on a Ranger right now so we'll see how it goes. I'm gonna build out a hybrid spec and if it is really miserable than I'll make something else. No worries.

Is camouflage no good? seems to be active as soon as you stealth and 10 min CD after combat right?

Jaysun wrote:

pirhana7 wrote:

Jaysun wrote:one word Dodger.. Inf with Dodger means even if they miss perf they WILL evade and you'll eat DF in the face. Rangers have no PD so they would basically be a poor BM without Parry and low weaponskill

Unless the Ranger has the same level of Dodger. I plan to go to dodger 4, that puts me at 27% before stats . Thats basically Friar evade. Then factor in Pathfindng: dex/qui buff will really up evade for a ranger far more than a potion for an assassin. Same for str and high damage add self buffs. these up your stats far more than potions at this time.

Then think at higher rank with ignore pain and avoid pain. i think melee rangers will be able to hold their own. But not so much for teh otehr 2 archers

that's not who it works; assassins with dodger 4 will be near the 50% evade cap or above it-more on this later. Evade is halved vs dual wield so the assassin will be at 25-30%, the ranger with dodger 4 wll be at 13%. Once you get hit with disease and debuffed, that lowers your WS even further and the assassin evade does up even higher.

I played one of the Original Melee Rangers on Percival well before their FOTM, we had PD to help mitigate Assassin's superior damageHeyu. WE had purge to use after an Assassin unloaded on us and IP. And even then a competent Assassin could still win, without our instas were were dead.

Rangers in this DaOC going melee will be Assassin fodder.

Dodger and evade cap are effected by your attackers WS, so assassins will want to have at least dodger 3-4 so they'll be sitting at 47%. I've seen Infs with Dodger 5 go unstealthed vs Tanks and win.

Hey Jaysun! I think the larger concerns will be a) buffs and b) lack of MoS. I played a hybrid the entire time on Percival and I don't think I ever had more than Dodger 3... I won about 80% of my fights versus other stealthers until buffbots got out of control. Those Infiltrators you mentioned beating Tanks (Kynnyth?) won because they were botted, not because of Dodger 5, imo.
I think the lack of MoS will make a bow specced Ranger very difficult to play.

pirhana7 wrote:Thanks for all the info. You have experienced Ranger as where I have not. I was on the other side as a Inf and Scout. I will agree you are correct for the most part, Melee Rangers wont be as strong as they were at other times. But i don't think they will be as weak as you think. The only reason i say this is because I think you are basing everything from previous experiences with everyone having buff bot buffs.

With no Buff bots here...When you look at the weak alchemy version of stat buff for this time plus that fact that they only have 1 charge and last 10min I see it being a big factor. I just dont see most people trying to carry all 5 potions with such a limited inventory otherwise they will ahve no buffs after an hour and be buying / making them non stop to rvr. I think most will just carry the 2 spec potions +30/30 and +30/30. SBs will also probably carry the +20str potion but i just dont see most people carrying all 5 or even 4 for the most part.

Now look at Ranger Buffs, not only do they give you much higher stats than the potion but your buffs are allowing you to have plenty of room to carry the other 2 or 3 potions so you can actually be fully buffed or just go with str/con and dex potions. This is based off of 48 pathfinding with 48dex/qui and 41 str but those number also go up a little from bonus of speccing high on that line. then factor in alot of enemies wont even have the base +20 potions so you will likely have +50 more dex and str from buffs/potions than most your enemies. I think this is what makes it more of an even melee fight than you think.

Why only 1 charge buff ? in uth 1.0 you can use all the charge buff you want...