Hi all!

If I would go for Norse Warrior (which I learned by now is far less DPS than Troll at the course of the game) will this STR gap be evened out in the course of the game because both races reach the cap thrugh gear at somepoint?

no, because the troll will always have the racial bonus that he started with, plus whatever you add on top.

Trolls will always have their 30+ str on the Norse, so it will never even out..

but as a troll you are pretty easy to control being such a big target... until you get to decent RR and put loads into Det. It doesnt overly matter what race you pick, if you are good you are good regardless of race or class.

The most OP class in the game can be beaten easily when played by a scrub

borog wrote:but as a troll you are pretty easy to control being such a big target... until you get to decent RR and put loads into Det. It doesnt overly matter what race you pick, if you are good you are good regardless of race or class.

The most OP class in the game can be beaten easily when played by a scrub

This is so very true!

borog wrote:but as a troll you are pretty easy to control being such a big target... until you get to decent RR and put loads into Det.

Det5 = 22 points
Purge = 4 points

Welcome to the melee patch that you don't need loads of points to dump into det or purge as a tank. A warrior is set at 3L7 with lw1, det5 and purge.

borog wrote:The most OP class in the game can be beaten easily when played by a scrub

Sorry but if anyone rolls another race than troll, gives up on free aug str5 just for the looks or being harder to targeted (lol) than that's the definition of scrub.

Thats not a perfect way to look at it. Yes, the troll has more innate STR at creation. However, the norse has higher quick. Going 15 quik, 10 str or con is pretty normal on a troll. On a norse you can go 10/10/10, str/con/quik.

If you can run under celerity the entire time, the troll will yield slightly better DPS at the end of the day. However if you cant, the norse will swing faster yielding better DPS over time.

The other thing to consider is racial resists. I consider being racially resistant to cold (norse) more important than matter (troll).

Lastly, the norse blends into the crowd a bit more as they can be many different classes. You see a troll its a pretty safe bet its a melee type, and you just CC, snare, etc. The norse can be a tank, healer, caster, stealther, so you actually have to figure out what they are.

Is quickness more important than dex on the norse warrior in this case?

Kaldor wrote:Thats not a perfect way to look at it. Yes, the troll has more innate STR at creation. However, the norse has higher quick. Going 15 quik, 10 str or con is pretty normal on a troll. On a norse you can go 10/10/10, str/con/quik.

If you can run under celerity the entire time, the troll will yield slightly better DPS at the end of the day. However if you cant, the norse will swing faster yielding better DPS over time.

Do you really think 15 more qui gives warrior more dps than 30 str? Let's say you are right;
30 str = aug str 5, 34 points (4L4)
15 qui = aug qui 3 gives 18 for just 10 points ( 2L0)
So even if that amount of qui makes a difference, you can easily catch norse with troll. But Norse will never have aug str5. Also slow but big spike dmg is what you need as a def tank, not better overall dps from faster hits. You can rarely stick and spam styles like a zerker/svg.

Kaldor wrote:The other thing to consider is racial resists. I consider being racially resistant to cold (norse) more important than matter (troll).

Lastly, the norse blends into the crowd a bit more as they can be many different classes. You see a troll its a pretty safe bet its a melee type, and you just CC, snare, etc. The norse can be a tank, healer, caster, stealther, so you actually have to figure out what they are.

Valkyn has the best resists, cold against hib and body against alb. But as a warrior you are the last one to nuke down. When did you see enemy casters jump in to reach the back-line to assist on you? If you can push front-line with zerkers that means you don't need to guard anyone so it's already a win no matter what race you are. About that "norse can be anything", you are a fckin warrior! You are not a squishy caster or healer that needs to disguise. You being targeted first is better than anyone in your group. Also troll with huge hit box makes it harder to target anyone near you by ranged classes.

imamizer wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Thats not a perfect way to look at it. Yes, the troll has more innate STR at creation. However, the norse has higher quick. Going 15 quik, 10 str or con is pretty normal on a troll. On a norse you can go 10/10/10, str/con/quik.

If you can run under celerity the entire time, the troll will yield slightly better DPS at the end of the day. However if you cant, the norse will swing faster yielding better DPS over time.

Do you really think 15 more qui gives warrior more dps than 30 str? Let's say you are right;
30 str = aug str 5, 34 points (4L4)
15 qui = aug qui 3 gives 18 for just 10 points ( 2L0)
So even if that amount of qui makes a difference, you can easily catch norse with troll. But Norse will never have aug str5. Also slow but big spike dmg is what you need as a def tank, not better overall dps from faster hits. You can rarely stick and spam styles like a zerker/svg.

Kaldor wrote:The other thing to consider is racial resists. I consider being racially resistant to cold (norse) more important than matter (troll).

Lastly, the norse blends into the crowd a bit more as they can be many different classes. You see a troll its a pretty safe bet its a melee type, and you just CC, snare, etc. The norse can be a tank, healer, caster, stealther, so you actually have to figure out what they are.

Valkyn has the best resists, cold against hib and body against alb. But as a warrior you are the last one to nuke down. When did you see enemy casters jump in to reach the back-line to assist on you? If you can push front-line with zerkers that means you don't need to guard anyone so it's already a win no matter what race you are. About that "norse can be anything", you are a fckin warrior! You are not a squishy caster or healer that needs to disguise. You being targeted first is better than anyone in your group. Also troll with huge hit box makes it harder to target anyone near you by ranged classes.

To each their own. I see where you are coming from though, and that does make sense. Overall DPS is still important, but spike single hit is probably where it is at. The ultimate reality is that if the norse hit for say 500, the troll will probably hit for say 525, so probably a 5% damage increase at the end of the day max.

I prefer a norse. Ive tried them all actually. Had dorf and troll warriors on live, but preferred the norse.

Kaldor wrote:To each their own. I see where you are coming from though, and that does make sense. Overall DPS is still important, but spike single hit is probably where it is at. The ultimate reality is that if the norse hit for say 500, the troll will probably hit for say 525, so probably a 5% damage increase at the end of the day max.

I prefer a norse. Ive tried them all actually. Had dorf and troll warriors on live, but preferred the norse.

Btw it's so common to not hit qui cap while two handed weapon is equiped. It takes 1 slam and 2 hits to kill an over-extended off-tank with the assist of dark rm. 30 more str gives more than 5% dps. With 50 weapon spec, troll warrior has the highest weapon skill in the game. You will be on merc/bm most of the time, while they have advanced evade, 42 shield and some parry. With norse you will have harder time trying to penetrate their defenses to slam first or back-snare while they evade from 360 degrees. Before defense penetration even kobby warriors were doing okey.

People should play the game the way they enjoy it. Troll swings too slow for your taste? Or too big and covers all your screen? Then pick something else, I'm ok with it. But saying "norse is better" is just misleading man. Cheers!

imamizer wrote:

Kaldor wrote:To each their own. I see where you are coming from though, and that does make sense. Overall DPS is still important, but spike single hit is probably where it is at. The ultimate reality is that if the norse hit for say 500, the troll will probably hit for say 525, so probably a 5% damage increase at the end of the day max.

I prefer a norse. Ive tried them all actually. Had dorf and troll warriors on live, but preferred the norse.

Btw it's so common to not hit qui cap while two handed weapon is equiped. It takes 1 slam and 2 hits to kill an over-extended off-tank with the assist of dark rm. 30 more str gives more than 5% dps. With 50 weapon spec, troll warrior has the highest weapon skill in the game. You will be on merc/bm most of the time, while they have advanced evade, 42 shield and some parry. With norse you will have harder time trying to penetrate their defenses to slam first or back-snare while they evade from 360 degrees. Before defense penetration even kobby warriors were doing okey.

People should play the game the way they enjoy it. Troll swings too slow for your taste? Or too big and covers all your screen? Then pick something else, I'm ok with it. But saying "norse is better" is just misleading man. Cheers!

I played for 9 years on live, probably a dozen chars over R5, and I have a really good grasp on mechanics.

First, you cannot hit the 250 quick cap on Uthguard with a warrior, with either a norse or troll. 60 from buffs, 75 from template, and plus what from race. Generally a norse will hit 195 with +10 at creation, and 185 with +15 at creation. There is absolutely no reason to not run run +75 quick in template with 2h weapon out.

Damage over time is more important that front load damage. That has been proven out for a long time now. Swing the slowest weapon as fast as you can. Why do you think we chased 101 quik templates, celerity, haste, etc on live? It wasnt because we were tying to gimp ourselves. I wont bore you with the details, but the norse will always do better damage over time, whereas the troll will hit slightly harder per swing. Source: http://www.etilader.com/wscalc.php

Weaponskill is a function that calculates damage and defense penetration. So the troll will have higher WS, about 125 points at level 50, give or take a bit when based purely on STR. The only way to test this for real is take a troll and a norse with the same everything and go hit a 1000 level 1 mobs and log it, then turn around and hit a 1000 with whatever style you want to check growth rates on and whether or not WS inflates damage caused by style. I doubt youll find its even 5% difference. Here is a calc for WS. Does not list shield WS. http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics ... lator.html

However, the shield mechanics in game have their WS 100% based on dex. The norse will always be able to land a slam easier than a troll. The norse will have slightly better defenses as B/P/E are based on dex or dex/quick.

Mercs and BMs with advanced evade... Its over blown. It doesnt take much WS to penetrate what is effectively evade 1 on a merc and evade 3 on a BM. IIRC the advanced skill just allows then to evade 360 based on their base skill. I base this knowledge on playing a merc to R6 and playing with a R12. Also, you look at classes on live that borderline exploit run thrus and such like reavers, valks, etc, they have no issues penetrating AE with a much lower WS than a warrior.

And I challenge you to find a merc or BM on Uthgard that runs 42 shield that RvRs competitively. I tried it for a bit on my merc. Its a PITA. Manual switching of weapons and shields, and taking about a 10-15% damage nerf. Good spec for messing around in PvE though, can off tank, and shield bot.

Obviously you can invest RPs into aug stats to shore up some of this either way but overall the troll will have to but more points into aug stat RAs than a norse to play catch up to the norse in some stats. In any case, either race will need at least aug str and dex 2 to reach MoPain and MoArms.

The TDLR version? Roll troll for biggest single hit potential. Roll norse for faster swings, better shield WS, and better defenses.