Howdy all,

First off, super excited to have Uthgard back and be playing DAoC again. Huge thanks to the server’s staff for their tireless efforts and bringing so many thousands of people together!

Starting a thread here to ask players (and hopefully GMs) if the Battlegrounds will be remaining the way they are (i.e. releasing after death ports you back to border keep/realm outside of BG). As it stands, this really renders Battlegrounds obsolete (in my opinion). I know we’re all rushing to 50 at the moment so not a ton of us are stopping to smell the roses, but I don’t see people really coming together for Battleground play now or in the future with being ported out of Battlegrounds and not returning to action 15-20 minutes later (there should also be a healer there IMO as well). It's just too much for the lowbie crowd. I’d imagine the opposition would tire of waiting if say, that was the only enemy group in the instance. There are no where near enough people in Battleground for this to occur, as wild as that sounds with 5.5k trying to connect on a Sunday. In the interest of discussion I’d like to explore this topic itself here regardless of the outcome.

Now, there was a bug report on this last year HOWEVER this is how BGs were originally intended to be in 1.65, it would port you out of BG just like the way it does on Uth 2.0. So this is NOT a bug (it just sucks lol). Many have pointed out that this is “live-like" or “this is 1.65” but we’ve already had so many additions, modifications and upgrades to our patch level I don’t think remaining true to 1.65 is necessarily a valid argument for this one. I do recall someone in the report pointing out that battle groups weren’t until 1.66--but hey, we want them and they’re great so we use them in 1.65. That’s just one example, there are countless others.

The main argument I’ve heard against this being implemented is that it will hurt 50 RvR because people will be tempted to twink Battleground alts and not participate in RvR. This is not an invalid argument, it is a legitimate concern and one that I share. But let’s look at the facts, there was +5.5k people trying to connect today, when a ton of those people hit 50 and template, how in the world will frontiers be hurting for action? Hell, there hasn’t been a time I’ve gone out even now without getting into some trouble (and rather quickly). Also, are we saying that the vast majority of us just can’t control ourselves from playing Battlegrounds constantly rendering endgame RvR scarce? Maybe there’s some of those people (this doesn’t include myself) but they’re not the majority, not even close.

One thing that makes DAoC so great is that there’s so much to do, and Battleground play is part of that. For me, it’s an extremely fun part of it and I know hundreds if not thousands of others feel this way. We love PvE, we love Frontier RvR, we love the crafting system, we love housing, and we love BGs (inb4 someone bashes one of these parts of the game). Taking away one of those things hurts the overall game experience for a lot of people, Battlegrounds is no exception. Now I know BGs aren’t purposely being rendered useless but that’s likely the effect the current state of BG instances will have, and at the very least will make them way less fun than they were on Uth 1.0.

Having the opportunity to experience RvR as your class in Battlegrounds as you level is invaluable to newer players, returning players and players who aren’t as experienced in endgame RvR. This will give them an opportunity to test their skills beyond PvE, and while it won’t make them rockstars at 50 just because they played a few rounds of Thid, it’s still experience. But we’ll all still complain when people don’t do their jobs right at 50 in RvR even though they haven’t even had the chance to fight anyone until then, right? In the old days of live, shortly after the release of SI, someone of my fondest pre-50 memories were seeing enemy players for the first time. I no longer had to wait until that specific character was 50 to see some realm vs realm action, I was genuinely excited and those BG trips helped me learn the classes I played for the first time. AND it creates and early sense of realm pride (something we’re all serious about here with the huge waits to switch faction).

Another issue people have with this is players/twinks being too OP in Battlegrounds, owning the newer, less geared players. But it’s really no different in Frontiers, in fact the gap will grow even farther in time there than it could ever have in a Battleground. I think it’s fair to say most people that play on this server (or daoc in general) don’t reach endgame, templated RvR so by those people being in a Battleground, you’re not necessarily taking away from endgame because they were never going to be there in the first place. Those are the more casual players of course, and if people are saying, “well good, we don’t want them here anyway” or “beat it, you’re tying up the queue to play stupid BGs” who says those people don’t have a right to play the game the way they want (or as much as their schedules allow) as long as they follow the Uthgard rules? Now if the Uthgard staff doesn’t want these people playing, that’s another story and that’s entirely up to them (I don’t believe that is the case though, they seem to be pretty happy that everyone is here playing--as am I). But that’s the whole basis of games like this, get better gear and more money to beat the other guys. How is a few BG twinks worse than a templated level 50 group owning countless full groups of grey players in frontiers? I think it’s up to us to be responsible (or irresponsible) as players while remaining in line with the Uthgard Server rules.

People have stated (and I agree) that those exceeding the RR cap for the BG will hurt the experience for other players (again no different than endgame for some). So why not just either A) force them out once they’ve capped B) not allow them to continue gaining RPs passed that cap or C) prevent them from returning to the Battleground after capping and dying?

Personally, and I know many others feel this way. I love DAoC not just for the 50 RvR or killing dragons but because of how multifaceted the game is--there’s just so much to do. And Battlegrounds are part of that. Uthgard gives us the best (and only) shot at experiencing that again. This is my favorite game of all time and I have been playing it on and off since 2001, and I strongly feel that this part of the game shouldn’t be rendered useless (or with major hinderance)  because of a 1.65 technicality, as so many other modifications have already been made that aren’t exactly ‘1.65.’ Certain parts of ‘classic’ were updated because they hurt gameplay, this is a prime example. Would love to hear people’s (intelligent) thoughts on this. Hopefully this hsan't been discussed yet on forum (I didn't see anything beyond bug report). OK good talk, see ya out there.

T

They will remain as they are.

Trishin wrote:They will remain as they are.

Major bummer...

Would still like to hear player's thoughts and opinions here even though it will not be changed (how they feel it hurts/helps things, etc). Or at least some (any) sort of rebuttal to my argument...

That may be the quickest beatdown of a wall of text I've ever seen.

mcampbell wrote:That may be the quickest beatdown of a wall of text I've ever seen.

haha right?

But it's their server, their hard work, their rules. What more can I say beyond that? I don't pay a sub for this game (not that gaming companies would listen to me anyway if I did). I was just trying to spark a discussion to hear what people thought of this feature. I love this game, and I believe it's a key component in DAoC's multifaceted gameplay. So I was hoping to get a refutation of my statement by players and/or GMs, but I can see that's not going to happen lol!

Trishin wrote:They will remain as they are.

Empty

krycek wrote:

Trishin wrote:They will remain as they are.

Empty

sounds fine

Galandriel3 wrote:

krycek wrote:

Trishin wrote:They will remain as they are.

Empty

sounds fine

Hi Gal,

Why, in your educated opinion, does that sound fine? Trying to learn what this community values.

Thanks mate.

I feel like Trishin just slapped you in the face with a frying pan on that one... I think the ole phrase "It is what it is" works perfectly here. We play it as is and deal with anything we may not agree on. I am still loving my Uthgard experience.

Tyton wrote:

mcampbell wrote:That may be the quickest beatdown of a wall of text I've ever seen.

haha right?

But it's their server, their hard work, their rules. What more can I say beyond that? I don't pay a sub for this game (not that gaming companies would listen to me anyway if I did). I was just trying to spark a discussion to hear what people thought of this feature. I love this game, and I believe it's a key component in DAoC's multifaceted gameplay. So I was hoping to get a refutation of my statement by players and/or GMs, but I can see that's not going to happen lol!

The sad reality is that 1.65 has been deemed The Sacred Patch and will not be changed. "It's 1.65" is a valid defense in of itself. Issues on this server aren't going to get fixed, ever. The devs for this server aren't going to try and make the server better. So, stick around for some nostalgia while you feel like it, leave when the glaring problems in 1.65 start making things unfun for you. Best you're going to get.

It's weird, though, because the server already has custom changes. Baffles me that nobody will even talk about others.

Ladav50 wrote:I feel like Trishin just slapped you in the face with a frying pan on that one... I think the ole phrase "It is what it is" works perfectly here. We play it as is and deal with anything we may not agree on. I am still loving my Uthgard experience.

Hi Ladav,

I think you, and perhaps Trishin (as I'm sure all the GMs have bigger fish to fry than BGs issues [or non issues]), misunderstand the point of this thread. I started it to create a friendly discussion about RvR/Battlegrounds (hence the section it's in, and I also didn't know what was or wasn't being done about this when I posted). No one seems interested in that, and that's fine. Was just giving my opinion on why it should be changed. I don't agree with it because it removes a key component of the game, BUT I'm not 'fighting' to change things nor am I having trouble accepting "the old phrase 'it is what it is'" -- I am trying to learn why it's better (or worse) the way it is right now. Creating discussion (which is what forums are for). Yes, it's 1.65 true! But there are already so many custom changes that aren't 1.65 it's not even funny, so I wanted to learn why this would be any exception.

With every day that passes it seems this community (in-game and in forum) is becoming more and more like a bunch of 14 y/o League of Legends players than the mature DAoC players I thought we all were. No intellectual discussion; just trolling, two word answers and nonsense. Definitely a bummer!

T

I agree with the staff here.

Wiping the enemy at the keep means victory. Not you have 2 minutes to scramble to the keep lord until the reinforcements return.

Honestly, wall of text & tl:dr, but this is a dead horse of a topic i don't mind smacking one more time.

Here's why I'm for bg's and port pads staying the way the are: consequences.

Dying should matter. You should have a 2nd thought about leaving ur PK solo. If you forgot to bind at the border keep and r now on a 10minute horse ride from the other end of the realm - this one time, ideally, should be the last time you forget to bind. Same for neck checks.

If i'm with 30 ppl trying to take CK and we wipe 10+ defenders trying to get in, the same defenders should not be back b4 i have a chance to regen some mana or b4 the door is damaged even 50%. Consequences bring things like strategy and tactics back to this great niche game of ours. Those same 10 defenders would be much better off roaming between ck and our PK to pick off stragglers and wait for doors to be down to rush he attackers while they're trying to kill the lord/deal with guards - or come up with a better tactic than trying to rush the gate to maybe make it inside or get a rez from the wall - just so they can hopefully be at full hp and lose rez sick by the time doors r down.

I guess it all boils down to risk vs reward. Fighting the same prepared grp twice in 30mins is, imo, more rewarding than fighting 8 somewhat organized ppl 5 times in the same 30 mins when they just flood out of pk's like sheep.

And i dunno if ppl just forgot how bg's were after NF, but i sure as hell got tired of getting no rp's for a lot of kills because the person has been killed recently and is worth no rp's.

Rhcrow wrote:I agree with the staff here.

Wiping the enemy at the keep means victory. Not you have 2 minutes to scramble to the keep lord until the reinforcements return.

Thanks for the input Rhcrow. I think you have a good point, that can get frustrating for some folks who don't want an endless onslaught of enemies. But sadly, the victory you're talking about won't occur often (if at all) because BGs will be empty. And I think 2 minutes is not an accurate estimation of time. First, there's rez sickness (5 minutes if you keep healers out), and a couple minutes to reform and rebuff/rethink strategy. That's more like 5 to 10minutes (at the fastest). Now add that to a waiting for a port and being low level, and that's the only fight your group is going to get in that BG (if you're lucky). I feel like enough people aren't going to keep re porting for BGs.

T

Evinac wrote:Honestly, wall of text & tl:dr, but this is a dead horse of a topic i don't mind smacking one more time.

Here's why I'm for bg's and port pads staying the way the are: consequences.

Dying should matter. You should have a 2nd thought about leaving ur PK solo. If you forgot to bind at the border keep and r now on a 10minute horse ride from the other end of the realm - this one time, ideally, should be the last time you forget to bind. Same for neck checks.

If i'm with 30 ppl trying to take CK and we wipe 10+ defenders trying to get in, the same defenders should not be back b4 i have a chance to regen some mana or b4 the door is damaged even 50%. Consequences bring things like strategy and tactics back to this great niche game of ours. Those same 10 defenders would be much better off roaming between ck and our PK to pick off stragglers and wait for doors to be down to rush he attackers while they're trying to kill the lord/deal with guards - or come up with a better tactic than trying to rush the gate to maybe make it inside or get a rez from the wall - just so they can hopefully be at full hp and lose rez sick by the time doors r down.

I guess it all boils down to risk vs reward. Fighting the same prepared grp twice in 30mins is, imo, more rewarding than fighting 8 somewhat organized ppl 5 times in the same 30 mins when they just flood out of pk's like sheep.

And i dunno if ppl just forgot how bg's were after NF, but i sure as hell got tired of getting no rp's for a lot of kills because the person has been killed recently and is worth no rp's.

I think you raise a great point Enivac, dying shouldn't mean nothing. (I already think it does mean something in DAoC even minus the BG e.g. loss of XP in PvE and having to return to boarder keep in Frontier at 50.) And if these players are so disorganized after 5-10minutes like you say, I don't think an extra 15 minutes is going to change that. And BTW I love the 30 ppl taking out +10 defenders in BG scenario, sounds like hella fun man. Unfortunately, the thought of 40-50 people in a BG will not occur with the current state. Lucky if there's 1 caster farming mobs in Thidranki atm.