unforgetable wrote:This is just an idea (and I don't know how you'd test this) but if your hypothesis is that there is some kind of glitch in the matrix with resists and every cast during that glitch will be resisted, couldn't you test it will some kind of AE spell on multiple people? In theory, everyone should resist the spell on that cast, right?


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Yes

Grunklestank wrote:

unforgetable wrote:This is just an idea (and I don't know how you'd test this) but if your hypothesis is that there is some kind of glitch in the matrix with resists and every cast during that glitch will be resisted, couldn't you test it will some kind of AE spell on multiple people? In theory, everyone should resist the spell on that cast, right?


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Yes

Unless its actually a glitch on the receiving end and not on the casted spell. Like a person has some sort of immunity for a period of time or something. You couldn't test that with aoe.

barto22 wrote:

Grunklestank wrote:

unforgetable wrote:This is just an idea (and I don't know how you'd test this) but if your hypothesis is that there is some kind of glitch in the matrix with resists and every cast during that glitch will be resisted, couldn't you test it will some kind of AE spell on multiple people? In theory, everyone should resist the spell on that cast, right?


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Yes

Unless its actually a glitch on the receiving end and not on the casted spell. Like a person has some sort of immunity for a period of time or something. You couldn't test that with aoe.

You could hypothetically, and I can think of tests that could be run to do it... the problem is is that it would take so long, and there are so many different variables to test, it would take hours and hours over several days (and might still come up with nothing in the end).

I honestly don't think any players or devs are going to invest this kind of time.

Tbh, a careful review of all code that could POSSIBLY affect PvP resists would be where I'd start. Here's to hoping the devs get frustrated enough with resists personally (assuming they actually still play the game themselves) to actually do this...

As far as the AoE's go I've had it happen with PBaE before where every single target resists. Not sure how to test that legitimately as it's so circumstantial

It's just a long and arduous thing to test. You can't really blame Blue for not wanting to sit around and dig for hours on a hunch. Best thing I can think of would be for Blue to let people know exactly what to test under what conditions and what data is needed and let the player volunteers go and test it.

Live currently has a free trial for returning players and you could set up some sort of test there quite easily and macro it.

Here are some from yesterday running in a small man. These were literally enough to turn the tide of a fight, calling for assists in a good position, yet unable to put out the damage. You only have a few seconds before Det 5 tanks are ontop of you. Seriously, wonder why even bother playing casters on Uthgard?

There's def nothing wrong tho, surely working as intended

http://imgur.com/a/1jaIn

http://imgur.com/a/cU9K3

It's been about 3+ months now. Still waiting on an answer as to how an Abomination resisted me 8x in a row. Numerous screenshots submitted, still approx zero responses as to how that was possible.

GG?

Went 4 times in a row to Odins gate, got killed 4 times from the same NS who resistet all 4 times my QC Mezz. Still hope it is just bad luck.

Sendnudez wrote:It's been about 3+ months now. Still waiting on an answer as to how an Abomination resisted me 8x in a row. Numerous screenshots submitted, still approx zero responses as to how that was possible.

The devs have answered so many times that they have investigated and there is no issue they can identify. So not sure where you get the belief that there have been 0 responses. If you ask the same question 100 times and get 5 responses back initially, just because they don't answer the next 95 times you ask doesn't mean they are being negligent, it means you're misunderstanding.

To give some further insight... I spent 10 minutes this morning implementing the DoL formula for resit rates in my C# testing sandbox.

The formula is: 100 - (85 + ((spellLevel - targetLevel) / 2))
*uthgard are most likely using a slightly different formula. however i don't have access to their formula.

If provided with a level 50 spell and a level 50 character the resist rate produced is 15% (i believe this may be 12.5% on uthgard, but can't find that source, i can adjust if we get clarification).

Let's have a look at a set of results...
1. So each dataset is a series of 100 casts.
2. Over each of the datasets I take a look for long streaks of resists.

Data Set 1:
Level 50 spell Vs Level 50 opponent.
Display resist streaks with a length >= 5. (Your screen shots above show streaks of 4-5)
Results: https://ibb.co/nDAet5
As you can see, given a level 50 spell and a level 50 target streaks of 5 or 6 will happen very frequently across uthgard.
They will happen roughly every 200 distinct sets of 100 casts across the user base.
To put it another way, if in one night 2000 people RvR and cast at least 100 lvl 50 spells vs a lvl 50 target, on average 10 of these people will see a resists streak of 5-6+ resists that night.

Data Set 2:
Level 50 spell Vs Level 44 target (max abomination level).
Display resists with a length >= 7. (Your screenshot previously showed 8 resists)
Results: https://ibb.co/hO2ERQ
As you can see, these are rare, but not impossible. But they can and will appear.
Roughly 1 in 50,000 casts of 100 level 5o spells vs a 44 opponent will hold a streak of 7 or more
Streaks of 4-5+ will happen a lot more frequently, even against a lvl 44.

Sendnudez wrote:Still waiting on an answer...

Answer: It can and will happen, that's maths / randomness. Yes, you were unlucky. But that shouldn't lead you to conclude that this ca no't happen. The only certainty is that it WILL happen. The fact that an abomination is level 44 really only reduces your resist chance by a few percentage points.

If you were seeing streaks of > 6 or > 7 resists in a row with a lvl 50 spell vs a lvl 50 target consistently across your RvR sessions, you may have something to complain about / feel very unlucky. But nothing you have posted to date demonstrates this.

The code used within DoL (and as such, uthgard, to a degree) to calculate resist rates is not complicated (it's pretty much that formula above). It's not difficult to test and it's not difficult to say definitively from those tests that 'this is working correctly'. The devs have said they have done as much, you have to trust them when they say that. The Random Number Generator uthgard use will be 3rd party, tried, tested and proven to give good random results.

So, which is it?

- There is some unidentifiable bug that exists in what essentially boils down to 10 lines of code that is so elusive and un testable that the devs have never been able to replicate or even see it. Or...

- You are seeing smaller streaks and thinking they are much more unlikely than they really are in reality (This is a common thing humans do). Instances of 5 or 6 resists in a row are not uncommon.

You are also suggesting that a streak of 8 resists is an impossibility, when in truth it's a mathematical certainty.

*Test Code: https://pastebin.com/buqt3fi4
*Undoubtedly somebody will point out some massive hole in my tests now :p
Edit: Broken Link

I'm too stupid to understand like 75% of that. I don't care what the formula supposedly is when it clearly doesn't function anything like live - at all. As I said earlier, if that resist chance was actually correct & the resists I experience daily was pure chance than I'd have won the lottery a few times over.

You have people saying they're experiencing the same thing, which for casters is almost always a death sentence. Not once in the history of my 15+ years of DAoC have I been soloed by a R1 Necromancer that didn't even see me. Not until Uthgard! This happens so constantly that my buddies half-joke that my character is bugged.

This completely changes the dynamic of my fights & it feels completely like a sh1tty game of rock paper scissors. Everytime I position & call for assists & just think "well, hope it doesn't resist". (pssst: it usually does). Meanwhile, Det 5 tanks are now on top of you, positioning is sacrificed & a bunch of power has been wasted.

The ultimate example of rock paper scissors is still soloing. Any kind of skill goes out the window & it's completely up to chance if I get to win a 1v1 or not. No amount of panning, positioning, strategizing terrain, getting a good opening - or anything that makes a decent DAoC player matters when it completely comes down to luck on Uthgard.

Broken

Never mind then, thought you may be interested in some actual data. I'll leave the problem with you. But a few points...

- Realm Rank does not affect resist rates, so RR1 or RR12 necro wouldn't make any difference.

- DAOC does work in a truly random way (on spell resists), as uthgard does. This has been proven time and time again over the life of DoL and Uthgard with multiple different parties investigating independently and coming to the same conclusion.

- You would see similar results on live if you were to try some tests on a character without Mastery of Focus or any mythics that raise spell level for resistance purposes (not 1.65). This is a big factor as to why it may seem different from live today.

- You say it happens constantly but so far you have provided 1 screenshot of a single unlikely, although more than plausible, event. Followed up by several screen shots of extremely common events.

I don't know what you expect the devs to do. They could repeat their testing 50 times and display the results to you and you would still make comments such as...

"I don't care what the formula supposedly is when it clearly doesn't function anything like live - at all. As I said earlier, if that resist chance was actually correct & the resists I experience daily was pure chance than I'd have won the lottery a few times over."

Which is total crap, by the way... if there was a 1 in 50,000 chance of winning the lottery (your worst example) i would certainly be playing every week. All you other examples are 1 in 100-200 ish chance... not very unlikely at all.

If...

You're not willing to try to understand data / examples / evidence.
You're not willing to accept the devs statement that they have tested it many times.
You're not willing to accept the historic work/research from the developer of DoL / Uthgard.
And you're not willing to log on to live and provide a good sample of data that supports your theory.

Then carry on moaning, but don't expect the devs to jump to your whim testing it each time you put a screenshot of 4 resists in a row.

Edit: Tags

It's not my job to research & write a thesis on DAoC resists. I'm just one of many players simply saying something is clearly broken. No I'm not willing to accept the dev statements or DoL work, especially when so much of that has had to be adjusted / proven wrong. You're not willing to accept my examples of screenshots here, when once again, in 15+ years of DAoC I've never felt inclined to start keeping an eye on my resists.

I get the feeling that you think I'm having this happen once or twice a night. On average this is about 1/4th of my casts. It is constant.

Then it shouldn't be much work to run the chatlog for one night and provide evidence?

So provide some data... do /chatlog for a night... PM me the results and I'll even parse it for you.


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I will do that sure - easier than screen shotting

Lurker, while I'm currently on the other side of the argument than you, I must say - nice posts. I nerded out on them and enjoyed reading over your work. I'd just like to point out a couple things:

(Using the 12.5% 50v50 resist figure that you pointed out)

While a 5 resist streak is mathematically possible, it's still a 1/32,768 chance of happening... that's very very low. And, albeit anecdotal, a lot of people have reported encountering these types of streaks, and fairly frequently.

A 50spell vs. 50 target 8 resist streak has a 1/16,777,216 chance of happening... that's rapidly approaching lottery-winning status.

I'll be the first to agree that we need more empirical data tho. Anecdotal evidence and negativity bias are TOO STRONK in humans

(Also, pseduo random coding for resists fixes this whole problem, and would be very easy to implement... so why not do it? sigh )