ForumSo how important is quickness in a template?
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So i'm curious on how important people think adding quickness to a template is given the warden self haste buff?
Is it still vital? Given you can get weapons of different speed, it seems you could drop your attempts at maxing quickness and use the imbue points someplace else. Thoughts? |
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only to fire arrows faster with your bow (to rupt),
weapon speed can just match melee speed cap (so 28 qui on the bow, rest in template ; if you really want it, otherwise just ignore quickness) |
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So just to be clear (thank you in advance)
Quickness does not affect Parry? It does not appear to affect the block formula at all, i'm unsure about parry. Does it affect ability to switch between holding weapons and healing? Does it affect anything except warden bow? I have a template that I can either choose between 22 quickness and 16 heat resist imbued or 0 quickness and all my resists maxed. Its not much but all the other templates for warden have 75 quickness and I'm trying to see if there is really any reason. |
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Quickness affects:
- attack speed - evade rate - proc rate (from attack speed) - base damage (higher dmg per hit) - style damage (lower dmg per hit) - parry rate - time to start casting after a hit (if you hit at 4.0 SPD then after you take a hit you must wait 4.0 seconds to start casting) Reminder to Self: Quality over Quantity, what is the Value here?
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I don’t think this is accurate at all..pretty sure dex is the only stat that affects parry evade and pretty sure it has nothing to do with being interrupted. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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I double checked the only mistake is parry which is not affected by quickness.
Evade is 50% stat based on quickness and 50% on dexterity I think you are considered swinging for 50% of the swingspeed after you swing. (maybe 100%) Reminder to Self: Quality over Quantity, what is the Value here?
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As far as I remember, the proc rate of a weapon is fixed on the DPS and not "on hit".
Means: the counts of procs per minute are the same, regardless how often you hit in this time frame. |
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Why more quickness increases your proc rate: More quickness increases your attack speed. The more attack speed means you can equip a slower weapon. A slower weapon has more proc rate per minute. If you compare two players with 2.0 attack speed: - one with higher quickness has a slower weapon than the other. - the one with the slower weapon has more procs per minute. Higher attack speed also mean that you are more likely to proc the reactives of the opponent (all else equal) if you have the same weapon as another with slower attack speed. In the end higher quickness allows you to make use of better gear in a more optimized way than somebody else with lower quickness. I think its around +0.1% attack speed for every point in quickness above 50 and below 250. Which is not much. But if you go all out in attack speed: Mastery of Arms, capped quickness, haste (proc/buff/pot) you get an edge by making better use of slower weapons. Also slow weapons have a DPS bonus. IMO quickness is useful only if you plan your character meticulously (gear, spec, style usesd, RA, playstyle). For a warden I would say higher quickness is useful only if you go in melee to snare ppl or if you solo/smallman with a combat warden build. If you are just a bubble/buff/heal support then no use for quickness, just equip a quick weapon, you can even go +0 quickness. Reminder to Self: Quality over Quantity, what is the Value here?
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Thank you everyone for responses:
My thoughts are if quickness can improve proc rate, therefore the wardens self haste can as well. Is there a ceiling or point of diminished return for quickness if you have the haste buff active? Would a warden only need like 15 quickness to cap attack speed for a 4.1 or 4.4 blade for example? is the cap 1.5? |
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The haste will improve your procrate indirectly, if you equip a slower weapon that is. The attack speed cap is 1.5, but at 1.5 you will hit for low style damage, high unstyled damage. The ceiling for quickness is 250 for attackspeed, i believe there is no ceiling for evade %. Reminder to Self: Quality over Quantity, what is the Value here?
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Was it tested on Uthgard? I asked about that in game, and someone told me that, if true, this might only apply on PVE and not on RVR targets where the proc chances per hit would be equal for all weapons. I have no test to support that either, and don't know what to believe now. There are two possible scenarios: [1] If it is confirmed that procs depend on DPS on not blows, then all weapons should have roughly the same proc rate over time as long as the swing speed is not capped (1.5 s)? If swing speed is capped (possible only with faster weapons), then a lower proc rate is to be expected over a long combat duration because the faster swing speed supposed to compensate lower proc chances per hit is "lost" with the cap. [2] On the other hand, if proc chances are fixed per blow and are the same on all weapons, then faster weapons should proc more often over a given duration due to the higher total number of blows. Even with capped swing speed versus non-capped swing speed, the faster always the better as it always translate in a net increase in the number of hits and, therefore, of procs. Now, would that mean that a toon that will NOT reach the 1.5 s swing speed cap (i.e., a character that will never have haste, celerity or D/Q buffs) and with a rather low damage table (i.e., not a melee DPS class), a faster weapon is better in both scenarios? Here is a list of the pros and cons of fast swing speed (not capped) that come to my mind: + Equal or higher proc rate depending on whether [1] or [2] is true, respectively + Better chances to land reactive styles + More opportunities to land utility styles (snares for instance), and at a lower endurance cost + Reduced delay for casting after melee + Decreased loss when a blow is missed or is defended, because this blow accounts for a lower portion of the total damage output - Lower DPS on the first hit (the first hit is instantaneous and therefore neglects the main disadvantage of slow weapons, so the slower the better); which translates into lower chances to one- or two-shoot an opponent [Edit] - Damage reduction of 0.3% per 0.1 SPD above 2.0 (see a post below), meaning that a weapon of 3.0 SPD should deal 3% more DPS than one of 2.0 SPD ? Style damage versus non-style damage (I never understood how those are affected by weapon speed and actual swing speed after taking Quickness into account) The lower damage on the first hit is the only major drawback I can think about, but that would be significant for high damage classes only, like Warrior, Berserker, Hero, etc., not Warden. What I have in mind is a solo Bard with even lower damage (hence the need for high proc rate). Thanks in advance. Last edited by Kabouik on Apr 18, 2018 16:08, edited 2 times in total.
[Mid] Koubiak, Krafilnaavith
[Hib] Soazig |
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Reminder to Self: Quality over Quantity, what is the Value here?
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Thanks a lot for your answer Requin. Could you please share the URL? I'd be interested in reading the whole discussion.
If I understand correctly, Genjiro states that he does not know if items have different proc rate values across realms, but that it might make sense to adjust them for balance based on whether celerity is available in the realm or not. Blue confirms that scenario [1] is correct: the proc rate is directly dependent on the SPD value of a weapon, and he doesn't say anything suggesting that it would differ between PVE and PVP. Since this is a fixed coefficient, the relation is linear, and the proc count should converge for all weapons speeds over long fights, provided that the actual swing speed is lower than the cap of 1.5 s (when capped, the swing speed can no longer compensate the lower proc rate of faster weapons). If this is correct, then I think the fast weapons have more benefits than the slower ones for low damage classes like Wardens and Bards, except if they will play with buffs that would make them reach the 1.5 s swing speed cap, of if slower weapons also have other advantages (like higher chances to penetrate defense, or damage bonus, or anything like that). [Mid] Koubiak, Krafilnaavith
[Hib] Soazig |
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a 4 speed weapon will have a 2.5%*4 =10% proc rate, if you swing a 4SPD weapon at 2.2 seconds, it will retain the 10% proc rate.
While a 2.2SPD weapon that you swing at 1.5 second, will have a 2.2*2.5% proc rate so 5.5% proc rate. Do you understand? Then a slow weapon also has a slow weapon damage bonus: You get a Damage bonus equivalent to 3% * SPD above 2, Damage Cap = DPS * SPD * 3 * (1 + (SPD - 2) * .03) SPD is the listed speed on the weapon info, not the calculated swing speed.
IMO it is never good to go lower than the swing speed of 1.5, it is equivalent to lost DPS. It is also not good to swing faster than 1.9 or you will just hit for very low damage. It really depends on what types of CC you use. For a 9sec slam you want to place 3 hits after the slam. you lose half of your shield SPD after the slam so if the shield speed is 3, then you have let us say 9-1.5-0.1= 7.4sec 7.4/3=2.45 swing speed would be best for SLAM on non-DET class. Reminder to Self: Quality over Quantity, what is the Value here?
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Yes, I think we're saying the same thing. In your example, you considered a fast weapon with capped swing speed, meaning that the benefit of its speed is partly lost due to the cap. We should first consider situations where the cap is not reached to compare both weapon types. The term "proc rate" might be ambiguous since it may refer to the ratio between proc count and duration or proc count and hit count, which are two different things, so I'll try to avoid it just for clarity:
- A 4.0 SPD weapon has a 0.25 × 4 = 0.10 proc probability, in other words, it should average to one proc every ten blows over long series. - A 2.0 SPD weapon has a 0.25 × 2 = 0.05 proc probability, in other words, i should average to one proc every twenty blows over long series. Since the second weapon is twice as fast as the first one, it should hit the target twice as often over the same duration, and therefore the final proc count should converge to the same value in both cases. Given that Blue confirmed that this is how the proc probability is hardcoded, both weapons should be equally efficient regarding procs over a fight, provided that this fight is long enough (and now that I think about it, it shouldn't be overlooked, because few fights allow for many hits...). Now, indeed, things change if the cap swing speed is reached. If the second weapon is so fast that the toon will cap swing speed due to buffs, then of course the second weapon will no longer hit twice as often because some of the extra speed is lost over the cap, and ultimately the output proc count should decrease. However, this is only relevant in case the cap speed is overreached (not my case, so the other benefits of fast weapons listed above are very significant to me), but I agree this may be realistic for Wardens thanks to their self haste buff. I didn't know about the damage bonus to slow weapons. That is interesting, and adds some complexity to the choice between a fast and a slow weapon. The above list of pros and cons should be completed to mention that fast weapons suffer a damage reduction of 0.3% per 0.1 SPD above 2.0. Thanks for the information. Can you post the URLs of both posts you quoted, so that I can read the full discussions and context? [Mid] Koubiak, Krafilnaavith
[Hib] Soazig |
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