man, if only the original developers of the game found a way to somehow balance the early game versions. but since they didnt, all we can do is play classic old RA servers one after another after another after another.

wait a second...

Nef Melody wrote:Just read the original post, but the answer is simple. Midgard can be played by braindeads, Albion can be played by mediocre players who know how to communicate and Hib is the hardest by default. Balance changes would have to take place for this to change. The problem is that the staff is inexperienced when it comes to RvR balance, so they are scared to take steps

Agreed on some points, but it's not good to generalize. With a decent bard, a 5 naturalist group can also be played by low skill players and have a lot of success, in this setting anyway. Even on uthgard1, many noob hib groups ran tank groups and had no problems competing. I agree that Alb and Hib require more skill when it comes to pugs and basic stuff, but if we're talking high level and players with good communication, Alb/Hib have better class synergy and RAs on this patch level.

And the uthgard staff...well, most of them have good intentions but they too rigidly stick to an idea that can't be replicated in practical terms(especially with this population) and it wasn't good when it was around anyway. I'm not sure if you're active or not, but I'm sure you remember that on uthg1 we had a wide variety of solo classes, even wardens and healers. Here it comes down to stealthers(mainly assassins) and a few speed classes, with a few honorable exceptions like Ogmora. This idiotic setting with old RAs and slow heals limits many classes for any kind of RvR other than zerg or picking fights with superior numbers. Even in 8v8 you're kinda forced to run specific setups and so many fights depend purely on a good inc or on having one of the 30 min re-use RAs up, which is really dumb.

It is what it is, can't be helped. With all his good intentions and with hmmm many players reaching out to Blue, I think he still doesn't realize what's going on and what's at the core of certain problems.

Valfar wrote:

Nef Melody wrote:Just read the original post, but the answer is simple. Midgard can be played by braindeads, Albion can be played by mediocre players who know how to communicate and Hib is the hardest by default. Balance changes would have to take place for this to change. The problem is that the staff is inexperienced when it comes to RvR balance, so they are scared to take steps

Agreed on some points, but it's not good to generalize. With a decent bard, a 5 naturalist group can also be played by low skill players and have a lot of success, in this setting anyway. Even on uthgard1, many noob hib groups ran tank groups and had no problems competing. I agree that Alb and Hib require more skill when it comes to pugs and basic stuff, but if we're talking high level and players with good communication, Alb/Hib have better class synergy and RAs on this patch level.

And the uthgard staff...well, most of them have good intentions but they too rigidly stick to an idea that can't be replicated in practical terms(especially with this population) and it wasn't good when it was around anyway. I'm not sure if you're active or not, but I'm sure you remember that on uthg1 we had a wide variety of solo classes, even wardens and healers. Here it comes down to stealthers(mainly assassins) and a few speed classes, with a few honorable exceptions like Ogmora. This idiotic setting with old RAs and slow heals limits many classes for any kind of RvR other than zerg or picking fights with superior numbers. Even in 8v8 you're kinda forced to run specific setups and so many fights depend purely on a good inc or on having one of the 30 min re-use RAs up, which is really dumb.

It is what it is, can't be helped. With all his good intentions and with hmmm many players reaching out to Blue, I think he still doesn't realize what's going on and what's at the core of certain problems.

Just wanna give credit, best post i read from you

Nef Melody wrote:Balance changes would have to take place for this to change. The problem is that the staff is inexperienced when it comes to RvR balance, so they are scared to take steps

No matter which changes the staff would introduce, there will always be one setup that is superior to another. And there will always be winners and losers. Basically, i don't think its bad here. In every realm you can build a group against another.

As example Alb Caster > Mid Tanks, Hib Caster > Alb Caster but Alb Hybrid/Tank > Hib Caster... (but this is paper daoc, praxis looks quite different against player skill, RR, RA up and so).

Nakja wrote:

Nef Melody wrote:Balance changes would have to take place for this to change. The problem is that the staff is inexperienced when it comes to RvR balance, so they are scared to take steps

No matter which changes the staff would introduce, there will always be one setup that is superior to another. And there will always be winners and losers. Basically, i don't think its bad here. In every realm you can build a group against another.

As example Alb Caster > Mid Tanks, Hib Caster > Alb Caster but Alb Hybrid/Tank > Hib Caster... (but this is paper daoc, praxis looks quite different against player skill, RR, RA up and so).

Of course, I agree. But if we want the server populated with good action, uthg1 way is the way to go . Lot of decent setups even for pugs and noobs and well, solo action will pick up too which again through a period of time creates a community and solo players become group players as well.

Btw, many people think that a good Albion hybrid group is the strongest setup out there if played properly, or at least the setup with the least amount of weaknesses against various setups.

Mids are kinda forced to run with a skald which is a super low utility class and can literally by good groups be neutralized for the majority of the fight unless the 30 min purge is up, where on uthgard1 skald had all those sweet RAs to dump and people still sometimes ran without one. In fact, the strongest mid group(Prime) did not have a skald at all and they still owned everything on rr4-5. They were actually super impressive cause they had probably 70-80% win rate against all the groups, including Team Ingo with their high ranks and durable hybrid setup. However, the biggest insanity I've ever seen on uthgard1 was the BTL French caster setup on Alb. I was standing in SF one day and saw the old Ruin/Anguish pug implode within 10 seconds 2 times in less than 6-7 minutes, they ported back and instantly wiped. Even Requiem with their 3x rr10+ BMs were imploding on inc and were literally helpless against BTL. Those BTL guys were ****** destroying everything on rr4-5, I guess they had a high rank cleric but that was the worst player in the group if I can recall.

Anyway, back to the topic. I'm just saying that I agree with you that styles make fights but hmmm, overall I feel that the patch level and old RAs prevent many classes from being incorporated in groups and even running out solo. Fights depend too heavily on incs or on RAs, where as on uth1 we'd take almost any inc because of faster heals and DI + SOS on all realms. With new RAs there would for sure be way more alb 8men out running tank or hybrid group, and hib tank groups would be relatively easy to build as well, as long as you have a decent bard. I also feel that because even solo rvr is restricted to a handful of classes, that alone kills the population because it creates a negative chain effect, one that could easily be positive if more classes were ok for solo(people would go out more, invite friends, meet other people they play with during their playing hours etc.).

Just look at archer classes, in theory they should be "hunting" assassins but not be as powerful as them in melee combat. With old RAs and this idiotic patch level assassins get all the goodies and you literally need like purge, IP, avoid pain2 and some passives to even compete as an archer, and they will always spot you before you spot them. Also, hunter/ranger self buffs are kinda gimped on this patch level and have lower value, which again prevents some players who maybe don't run charges to be decently buffed by self buffs. Not saying it's hard to get charges, just that more people would be playing if it were different .

Off topic again, nice fights yesterday and sorry for adding on that 1 fight in Uppland, we saw another alb group add on your fight with Penubra so leader called it .

Nakja wrote:

Nef Melody wrote:Balance changes would have to take place for this to change. The problem is that the staff is inexperienced when it comes to RvR balance, so they are scared to take steps

No matter which changes the staff would introduce, there will always be one setup that is superior to another. And there will always be winners and losers. Basically, i don't think its bad here. In every realm you can build a group against another.

As example Alb Caster > Mid Tanks, Hib Caster > Alb Caster but Alb Hybrid/Tank > Hib Caster... (but this is paper daoc, praxis looks quite different against player skill, RR, RA up and so).

I don't think the overall class setups and group dynamics across the realms are that bad or unbalanced. It is true that the setting, and nature of low population means that Midgard will dominate at this time. However, that's not such a bad thing either. It's something that can be coped with.

What throws this off, is the overly beneficial effect of owning multiple (or all) relics and also owning a vast (or all) keeps. This has an unbalancing return in terms of RPs gained and dmg dealt. I've suggested some ideas to counter this - I'd like it if we could look at this - by all mean critique my solution - lets come up with something that will help with evening out the playing field, encourage more solo play, small man play, 8v8, zerg play. There should be room for all of these on this server. The more styles of gameplay we embrace too, the more action there is. If we can achieve this, then population will continue to circle upwards. I'd love to see that.

Valfar wrote:

Nakja wrote:

Nef Melody wrote:Balance changes would have to take place for this to change. The problem is that the staff is inexperienced when it comes to RvR balance, so they are scared to take steps

No matter which changes the staff would introduce, there will always be one setup that is superior to another. And there will always be winners and losers. Basically, i don't think its bad here. In every realm you can build a group against another.

As example Alb Caster > Mid Tanks, Hib Caster > Alb Caster but Alb Hybrid/Tank > Hib Caster... (but this is paper daoc, praxis looks quite different against player skill, RR, RA up and so).

Of course, I agree. But if we want the server populated with good action, uthg1 way is the way to go . Lot of decent setups even for pugs and noobs and well, solo action will pick up too which again through a period of time creates a community and solo players become group players as well.

Btw, many people think that a good Albion hybrid group is the strongest setup out there if played properly, or at least the setup with the least amount of weaknesses against various setups.

Mids are kinda forced to run with a skald which is a super low utility class and can literally by good groups be neutralized for the majority of the fight unless the 30 min purge is up, where on uthgard1 skald had all those sweet RAs to dump and people still sometimes ran without one. In fact, the strongest mid group(Prime) did not have a skald at all and they still owned everything on rr4-5. They were actually super impressive cause they had probably 70-80% win rate against all the groups, including Team Ingo with their high ranks and durable hybrid setup. However, the biggest insanity I've ever seen on uthgard1 was the BTL French caster setup on Alb. I was standing in SF one day and saw the old Ruin/Anguish pug implode within 10 seconds 2 times in less than 6-7 minutes, they ported back and instantly wiped. Even Requiem with their 3x rr10+ BMs were imploding on inc and were literally helpless against BTL. Those BTL guys were ****** destroying everything on rr4-5, I guess they had a high rank cleric but that was the worst player in the group if I can recall.

Anyway, back to the topic. I'm just saying that I agree with you that styles make fights but hmmm, overall I feel that the patch level and old RAs prevent many classes from being incorporated in groups and even running out solo. Fights depend too heavily on incs or on RAs, where as on uth1 we'd take almost any inc because of faster heals and DI + SOS on all realms. With new RAs there would for sure be way more alb 8men out running tank or hybrid group, and hib tank groups would be relatively easy to build as well, as long as you have a decent bard. I also feel that because even solo rvr is restricted to a handful of classes, that alone kills the population because it creates a negative chain effect, one that could easily be positive if more classes were ok for solo(people would go out more, invite friends, meet other people they play with during their playing hours etc.).

Just look at archer classes, in theory they should be "hunting" assassins but not be as powerful as them in melee combat. With old RAs and this idiotic patch level assassins get all the goodies and you literally need like purge, IP, avoid pain2 and some passives to even compete as an archer, and they will always spot you before you spot them. Also, hunter/ranger self buffs are kinda gimped on this patch level and have lower value, which again prevents some players who maybe don't run charges to be decently buffed by self buffs. Not saying it's hard to get charges, just that more people would be playing if it were different .

Off topic again, nice fights yesterday and sorry for adding on that 1 fight in Uppland, we saw another alb group add on your fight with Penubra so leader called it .

Valfar - wtf happened! I agree with *almost* all of that wall of text. \o/ The only area I would disagree on is with the RA stuff. While I do agree there are definite improvements made by the change from OF RA to NF RA. There were also some losses in there. That doesn't mean we can't look at them though, I think maybe we could. However, it then risks us moving into the [voldermort] server style of tweak changes - which quite honestly are dangerous and I'd rather we didn't go there.

New Ra's would heavily favor higher RR, especially on a server that uses classic stats without toa bonuses (I'm not saying Old Ras are good). On Uth1 a rank4 group could never ever beat a rank 7+ grp no matter how big the skill gap. I agree that all realms are able to build competitive groups and setups, it is just alot easier in Midgard than in any other realm.
Not just due to the simplicity of the characters, but also due to the choices people make when it comes to character creation. Can't go wrong with rolling a zerker, and if you're not mentally or physically disabled you'll get invites to rvr grps, people know that. In hibernia on the other hand, you'll have enchanters, elds, mentalists standing around waiting for an invite to an RvR group but no one wants them because 80+% of casters are useless, not because the chars are not powerful but because they require a competent individual behind the keyboard, aswell as a group to enable them.

First and foremost Midgard encourages people to roll tanks, because the whole realm evolves around them, and tank groups are easier to play, period. I think the main problem is that people do not have the experience, skill and foresight to acknowledge that they or the people they group with cannot enable the potential of a caster - which makes them regret their decision later on, or think it is the fault of others. Then they get discouraged and quit instead of rolling another character (a tank), partially because of the slow leveling speed.

Nef Melody wrote:New Ra's would heavily favor higher RR, especially on a server that uses classic stats without toa bonuses (I'm not saying Old Ras are good). On Uth1 a rank4 group could never ever beat a rank 7+ grp no matter how big the skill gap. I agree that all realms are able to build competitive groups and setups, it is just alot easier in Midgard than in any other realm.
Not just due to the simplicity of the characters, but also due to the choices people make when it comes to character creation. Can't go wrong with rolling a zerker, and if you're not mentally or physically disabled you'll get invites to rvr grps, people know that. In hibernia on the other hand, you'll have enchanters, elds, mentalists standing around waiting for an invite to an RvR group but no one wants them because 80+% of casters are useless, not because the chars are not powerful but because they require a competent individual behind the keyboard, aswell as a group to enable them.

First and foremost Midgard encourages people to roll tanks, because the whole realm evolves around them, and tank groups are easier to play, period. I think the main problem is that people do not have the experience, skill and foresight to acknowledge that they or the people they group with cannot enable the potential of a caster - which makes them regret their decision later on, or think it is the fault of others. Then they get discouraged and quit instead of rolling another character (a tank), partially because of the slow leveling speed.

On uth1 plenty of rr5 groups had no problem obliterating rr11 set groups as well . I hear what you're saying though, providing skill is nearly the same, higher RR wins...agreed 100%. But to be honest, RR does not equal skill. Mid is even nowadays full of high RR noobs. In the very last year of uthg1 plenty of groups got their RRs relatively fast and even beat high rr set groups.

More action = more groups of similar RR fighting each other, even if they lose some fights that night against higher skill/rr . Btw, the problem you have on hib with casters with new RAs we have on mid now...our caster groups are way weaker than hib or alb, partially because we have a wasted slot in skald-speed bot with low utility.

It was certainly no problem for rank 6-7 groups to beat rr11 groups if they were skilled enough, but getting to the basics like det5 charge2 was a crucial point that alot of people never reached. But enough with Uth1

That is what I'm saying though, mid does not encourage people to roll casters, because they suck - this is just in the best interest of the Mid playerbase even if they do not acknowledge it. With Mid casters being so bad people will roll tanks instead and thus have an easier time getting into groups as tank groups are easier to form and to play. Hib and Alb players will not admit it or be to ignorant to see that they or their grp can not fulfill the potential that a caster offers (I am not talking about coordinated 8men groups, that is an entirely different subject)
and of course RR aint an indicator for skill, it is an indicator for dedication and invested time, nothing else ^^

Nef Melody wrote:It was certainly no problem for rank 6-7 groups to beat rr11 groups if they were skilled enough, but getting to the basics like det5 charge2 was a crucial point that alot of people never reached. But enough with Uth1

That is what I'm saying though, mid does not encourage people to roll casters, because they suck - this is just in the best interest of the Mid playerbase even if they do not acknowledge it. With Mid casters being so bad people will roll tanks instead and thus have an easier time getting into groups as tank groups are easier to form and to play. Hib and Alb players will not admit it or be to ignorant to see that they or their grp can not fulfill the potential that a caster offers (I am not talking about coordinated 8men groups, that is an entirely different subject)
and of course RR aint an indicator for skill, it is an indicator for dedication and invested time, nothing else ^^

Agreed. Higher rr cap battlegrounds would be a part of the solution for getting the basics, but then you'd have a lot of people just permanently rerolling BG toons(happened a lot on uth1). Bringing back player kill and guard tasks would help, while encouraging the players to actually fight other players once they get the basics. Also, it's totally fine imo for people to just zerg or kill small groups and combine guard tasks to get to certain rr, providing that they do real rvr later.

I vote for

• Guard and Player solo / group tasks
• Cathal BG 48 – 50 to 4L7
• RvR horses maybe including the rr5 Horse
• The “old” vault System where the Villa had four vaults

Bogged wrote:I vote for

1 Guard and Player solo / group tasks
2 Cathal BG 48 – 50 to 4L7
3 RvR horses maybe including the rr5 Horse
4 The “old” vault System where the Villa had four vaults

1. You dont need 1 if you have 2. after 4l7 you have the tools to fight most grps out and able to go vs higher rr opponents
2. What about the zillion chars thats below 4L7 and already 50? If you can stay until 4L7 even when 50 i like it. No xp or rp off
3. Horses will give a new meta off classes that could run out, i like the ide but cant run as fast as caster speed imo.
4. Change prices for buying it and keeping it too.

You will need at least xpoff to reach 4l7 otherwise the people keep suiciding

Simple, open up df to all for a few weeks so people can get template clobber.

Or just add the df merchants to capital cities for a month for all those who came from Nixon server(either new players or rerollers?), to at least get the templates sorted.

Mids will most likely whine by saying we'll go get keeps, a lot of people won't set foot in rvr without a template, no matter how casual they are.

Its one of many reason I no longer bother with this server, except to log on the necro and farm Barrows, not because I need the cash, its become that bad, my mission on this server is a vaultful of asterite. Not even going to bother trinketting it into plat, it's just better than the ****** state of rvr that exists here